This is an interview with Paul Nedzela (https://www.paulnedzela.com/). He plays baritone saxophone with the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra and leads his own quartet. He shares his thoughts on the experience of improvisation, how to prepare for a performance, the relationship between musical development and the various states of mind occasioned by improvisation, and several other topics.
0:00 Introduction
2:23 Describing the ideal state of mind during improvisation
4:46 The role of judgment (or lack thereof)
5:51 Examples of music that is perfect because of its imperfections
7:15 Pushing boundaries during improvisation
9:04 The role of adrenalin and nerves in improvisation
9:56 Managing performance anxiety and stage fright
10:58 The state of total involvement
12:00 The absence of ego
12:57 The effect of practice on the experience of improvisation
14:03 Engaging with the meaning of the music being performed
17:05 Emotion and the intellect in jazz performance
Unedited Otter.ai generated transcript:
Bradley Vines 0:00
Greetings all Welcome. Today I have a special treat for you. It is an interview with the fantastic baritone saxophonist Paul Nedzela. He is the very player for the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra, and he’s also a bandleader himself. He recently came out with his first album as a leader, Introducing Paul Nedzela, I believe is the name of that album featuring his quartet. It is a fantastic listen. So this interview was taken in London, I was based out of London and had the opportunity to study with Paul, when he would come with the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra to play at the Barbican Centre. And during one of these visits, we had this chat about the nature of improvisation. He has some great nuggets of advice, ideas about how to approach improvisation in order to make the most of the opportunity, and what he sees as the most compelling experience that’s possible through improvisation. I was very happy to be editing this not long before, a big band performance that I had. This was very inspiring for me. And I hope you’ll find it to be inspiring as well. Here it is: an interview with Paul Nedzela. Apologies in advance for the audio quality. This was taken in a cafe. There was quite a bit of background noise of trend. They have been that a little bit, but you may hear some clinking of glasses and silverware and also some background music. I hope you can focus on what Paul is saying words of wisdom from someone who’s doing great work in the world of improvisation. The idea
was to see if you have one or more examples of an anecdote, something that happened and experience that was particularly remarkable,
Paul Nedzela 2:13
just in anything having to do
Bradley Vines 2:15
with improvisation. Just let you talk about Yeah, what you think about it, first of all, and can build from there. Sure.
Paul Nedzela 2:25
Yeah. So I think about a particular anecdote, but I definitely remember so I talked about it with my dad, my dad used to be a musician, too. He was a bass player. He, he kind of stopped playing before I was born, though we things got a little tough for him in the 70s when things were going electric, and he just kind of didn’t practice enough stuff like that, he said, so anyway, he used to tell me though, about those moments of like, feeling really, like when everything was kind of clicking, and just reaching those moments, and he would feel this supreme confidence, and like elation, that he would talk about that that would hit him in those moments of just like everything being super easy. And you know, when everything was working, but we had talked about it for me, it’s a little different when I’ve reached those moments, and it’s always the goal. Rather than feeling really confident that most I feel his total loss of ego or thoughts about anything else, besides the present moment. That’s, that’s really like, the goal is for me is to be totally interested inside exactly what’s going on. And to kind of lose that, that thinking part of my mind, which is usually present. Not that it’s bad to think or anything, but usually, those are the best moments. For me to, I don’t know, those tend to happen more. When I’m not trying as hard to achieve them. You know, it can be when I’m not trying to impress people or stuff like that. So the more I’ve gotten comfortable and confident playing, it’s easier for me to get to that state. But it’s hard to say sometimes from the outside. You know, I never know, I can have a time when I felt pretty good. And I listened back and picked me up. Okay. And then other times when I thought it was like really bad. Or just like total miss and listen back and I said, Oh, okay, I thought you know, it’s not really that bad.
Bradley Vines 4:36
So there’s this mismatch between your internal sense of what’s right going on and then what’s happening. So
Paul Nedzela 4:46
I think that’s just like the judgment stuff that goes on with a lot of us anyway, you know, we’re super self critiquing. But there’s something about I don’t know for me, it’s like whatever. Fradkin more is less. Less judging, maybe more more critiquing, rather than genuine. So not taking it personally, even when I don’t do anything when I want it, or I fail doing mesocycle still just music and just messed up whatever he born with. And you know, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad person, when you mess up, or whatever thing is, right, it just makes you messed up to the music and little choir. Yeah, gotcha. And listening to some of the great recordings, honestly. Some of the best moments are when a guy misses. Like you can hear they’re reaching for something and fail, and their humanity comes through or like really clearly.
Bradley Vines 5:47
So what’s an example of that? Thinking?
Speaker 3 5:51
Oh, Miles, Miles would be a great example. I mean, his chops got weaker and weaker for a good period when he was just, you know, heavy into drugs, cracking notes, super out of tune, you know, chops kind of shaking and stuff like that. But I don’t know. Every note had meaning even when he missed it, you know, just like fluffing stuff around be anything. Like the Stella by Starlight recordings and stuff like that, or even some of the stuff we did with the elevens. And it was kind of missing it with the big band stuff. Train two, for sure. I mean, certain guys, you know, just squeaking away here and there. And it’s like, man, it’s just so raw and awesome. But then there are other examples of guys like well, maybe like George Coleman, for some, just thinking of that era, I guess, coming from train. He was like so much more. I don’t know, clean in a lot of ways. He’s an amazing player, too. But sometimes I didn’t hear it in the same way.
Bradley Vines 7:04
Sure, you know, since then
Paul Nedzela 7:06
you’re pushing. Yeah, that reaching are going to be out of reaching? I don’t know if that makes sense to you. Yeah, for
Bradley Vines 7:15
sure. I mean, I was interested, when we’re listening a short discussion last time, you said that you actually feel physically the intensity. At those moments, there is I think the jazz musician is experiencing crisis is pushing those boundaries, and everyone is being transformed with the person as they’re facing either, you know, succeeding, or like you said, it’s also he meant to break through at that moment, but there’s the potential right there for for something to happen. That’s magical.
Paul Nedzela 7:53
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes, I mean, they’re, like, you can kind of hear those moments in solos. I mean, it’s kind of a technique at this point, but where the, the rhythm section will, you know, either they start playing a kind of hemiola or something like that, you know, what I mean, where it’s, there’s some kind of off of the right, you know, away from the walking or away from the time. And, you know, you can just feel the tension build or whatever, until the pinnacle, when they all decide to start swinging again, and the audience, you know, always recognizes that as a moment, right. So it’s true. But there’s also like the question of, are they going to, are they going to come back in together? Sure. Right. I mean, that’s part of the thing. I think that if people register, it’s like, it was like, trying to go for something and the tension is building and can they make it work together? And when it fails, it is not nearly you know, it’s not the same thing you’re like, okay, yeah, that transition to you know, yeah, but you don’t hear it. It doesn’t register in the same way.
Bradley Vines 8:52
Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That’s true. So it’s, it’s like building is becoming part of the vernacular. Right. And being able to take it into those ambiguous places. Sure. Bring it back.
Paul Nedzela 9:04
Oh, yeah. I did have Yeah, the physical stuff, though. It was just Yeah, adrenaline for me. Yeah. That would, that would get me bad sometimes.
Bradley Vines 9:12
The adrenaline just the intensity of the moment. Yeah.
Paul Nedzela 9:15
I mean, you know, nerves and. And everything. Yeah, sometimes I would surprise myself and how I play through it. And other times, I would totally psyched myself out. You know, in a part that was I knew it was gonna be a little risky. Yeah, so I just try to you know, really work on those things as best you can. classical musicians to deal with that stuff. I mean, really bad. The way that they have to prepare themselves for moments of intense nerves. mind boggling, at least jazz musicians kind of accept mistakes allow one. So
Bradley Vines 9:56
that’s good. How do they know classical musicians do it. Do you know much manage with that?
Paul Nedzela 10:04
Well, I don’t know that much. I know that, you know, those, the whole audition process is, you know, really difficult. A prepare, you know, those few pieces, whatever it is five to 10 pieces just for months, you know, for this one moment. You can use mental tricks. And these I’ve done that, too, when you’re practicing to imagine yourself in the situation that you’re going to be performing.
Bradley Vines 10:33
So why do you think that that state? Going back to what you’re saying about that state of total involvement? Why is that desirable?
Paul Nedzela 10:47
Why is it desirable? You mean, for me personally?
Bradley Vines 10:51
For others for you, for you. You actually said that’s the goal state? Yeah. No. Why do you see that?
Paul Nedzela 10:58
Yeah, I mean, for me, I don’t know. I, I really feel like part of it is just like that state of nirvana. For me, like, you know, you’re kind of reaching a different, I don’t know, it’s like, total peacefulness for me. And it’s just like, just being able to be creative from that place. I mean, it’s like, real, I don’t know, it’s just like, comfortable. And exploring and all these things in a totally just just three way. Firms, you know, that’s the way I experienced it. Everyone doesn’t jump. That’s interesting. Because when, way better to just waste. But yeah, sorry.
Bradley Vines 11:44
Just saying that. It’s like, a loss of sense of self. It’s like a negative thing. Not negative, but something’s missing, you know, the self is. But why is desire? So you’re saying that actually, there’s something that comes with that?
Paul Nedzela 12:00
Yeah. I guess, maybe it would be really the loss of self by ego. As most of you know, I know. It’s like a kind of a subtle distinction. But you’re still saying everything you want to say. It’s just without using ego, like the Freudian kind of ego, gotcha. Teaching the judgment. Am I good or bad? What are other people making money? Or even like, how am I making it from this bar to that bar, something like, you know, what am I doing rather than? I mean, it’s such a higher level of playing anyway, I really, sometimes people try to just get to that point, honestly, before I feel like they can even play at all. That’s, that’s why I think it’s better. Yeah. You still couldn’t
Bradley Vines 12:57
happen more often. So when practice talking about a relationship between this and expertise? Did you have glimpses of this before? And then it’s become more frequent as you
Paul Nedzela 13:11
go through phases? Yeah, I mean, more than when I was not as great. Yeah, certainly, yeah. But I’ve had phases where it was happening more often. I mean, sometimes it has to do with how much small group playing I get to do. And in an improviser, you know, if I’m in the big band, it doesn’t happen as much. So if you only get one solo a night, it can be hard to kind of just automatically turn that on for one minute, if you can’t, but every now and then, you know, like, certain we get, like valid features every now and then. And those would be those moments of like crises that we were talking about, right? The adrenaline was hit, or maybe not as much, or I would think about, you know, what the piece meant, and try to get into these different states for me.
Bradley Vines 14:00
What do you mean by what the piece meant? That’s interesting. Oh,
Paul Nedzela 14:03
well, I mean, what’s the what’s the intent? So I mean, it’s another level of playing, right? Yeah. And again, writing notes and stuff like that. If you’re playing a song you know, you can change the intention of whatever the composer was trying to do, but I guess there’s an idea and it’s easier for me on certain pieces. It’s really clear, it’s like, okay, there is a clear like, Western, you know, or like deep longing and sadness going to the sun. Now, do they start playing a whole bunch of like, just maybe cliched. You know, like surf blue stuff, or you’re just throwing in all them two fives, you know? You might sound great in terms of what you’re able to do on those changes, right? But you’re not, you’re not playing with any of the feeling that the maybe the piece is actually sometimes it happens all the time with good players. I don’t know, I’d rather can’t always play. There shouldn’t work. So sometimes I’d rather like okay, let me try to provoke some emotion, you know, evoke emotion and provoked. So just thinking about that
Bradley Vines 15:32
makes me think of this tradition of singing. That’s part of a tradition or an indigenous tradition in northern Nordic countries. It’s called yo King. Yeah. And they, they will embody certain creatures, like there’s a whole song. Oh, yeah. And then it’s it’ll be like 2030 minutes of this guy kind of exploring what it is to be wirelessly, but it’s musical. Right. But the definitely the tambor changes in certain ways and you get this feeling it’s almost like that was part of this traditional communities and indigenous communities playing or becoming, it goes back 40,000 years, like the cave paintings of men becoming animals, right half lion half and things like that becoming of something that’s imagining you or someone else or empathy or a creature that you’re tracking. Like, you know, this. Warriors are the hunters and in Africa, they still do the persistence hunting, they can pretend that they’re the animal and they surviving. What would I be if job were that? Yeah, exactly. becoming something and then
potential as Yeah, totally. So human, right.
Paul Nedzela 17:05
Yes. seeking out other potentials. Transforming. Yeah. Yeah, it’s not really evolution, even necessarily, but it’s just yeah. I don’t know. It’s, it’s another level of my, which sometimes, you know, jazz is so long. It can be intellectual, which is great. I love it for that, too. It’s complex compared to a lot of other types of music, you know. And I think sometimes that can maybe, you know, you can lose the intent or purpose of certain music by only focusing on that. And I mean, I’m really not bad mouthing that stuff, because I love intellectualizing music, too. It’s like, those are two great sides of it, you know, but that’s one of the great things about dads and you can have both and, and just in a moment. Sure. Yeah.
Bradley Vines 18:11
It’s a great tradition. Yeah. Well, thanks for your patience to the tradition. And chatting about this. Yeah.
Paul Nedzela 18:20
No, I’m happy to I mean, I mean, I don’t know if that’s what you were looking for. It’s perfect.
Bradley Vines 18:25
Perfect. Yeah.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
THE NEUROSCIENCE OF IMPROVISATION 