This is the second part of our conversation with author, pianist, and law professor Mira T. Sundara Rajan. In this segment, she describes her experience of poetry and how it relates to her experience of playing composed music. Mira also reads poetry by Percy Blythe Shelley and provides a translation of poetry by her great-grandfather Mahakavi C. Subramania Bharati. She tells a fascinating story about Bharati improvising poetry.
The musical interlude towards the beginning features music composed and performed by Bradley Vines on baritone and alto saxophones. It also includes quotes from Anil Seth and Swami Sarvapriyananda. The quote from Anil Seth was taken from a masterclass he gave for the Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-masterclasses/2022/mar/23/understanding-consciousness-a-masterclass-with-neuroscientist-anil-seth). The quote from Swami Sarvapriyananda was taken from an interview he gave on the Waking Up app with Sam Harris (https://dynamic.wakingup.com/course/COFFD9B?code=SCE8C67C8&share_id=0B98BDDA&source=content%20share).
There is a segment of music at the end from a rendition of Bharati’s poem Nandala by O.S. Arun (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MWlmEMqO98).
Mira’s concert in the Noontime Concerts series will be announced here: https://noontimeconcerts.org/
For information about Mira’s activities and forthcoming books, see her website: http://www.professormira.com/
Unedited Otter.ai generated transcript:
Bradley Vines 0:00
Greetings, and welcome back to the neuroscience of improvisation. Well, you never really did leave. after all. You’ve been improvising this whole time whether or not you thought about it explicitly. This is the second part of our conversation with the author, musician and law professor Mira sooner Rajan. Here she shares with us her perspectives on the role of improvisation in poetry. She shares some stories from her family background about her great grandfather, the national poet of India, see Subramania Bharti and his spontaneous creation of poetry, she does some reading of poetry as well, including poetry by Shelley and also by her great grandfather, Maha cavae Subramanian party, I hope you enjoy this and find it enriching.
Anil Seth 1:06
Consciousness is somehow a property of matter.
Swami Sarvapriyananda 1:21
The entire material universe is an appearance in consciousness, and not distinct from consciousness.
Bradley Vines 1:29
So you, in addition to being pianist, are also an author. And you are known to read poetry. I heard use read poetry on Jack Wilson’s podcast. Yes. History of literature even. Yeah, so poetry also is something through composed. And when you read it, you’re creating it in the moment. Do you see that as a very similar process? Or experience in relation to performing a piece of composing music?
Mira Sundara Rajan 2:06
What a fascinating question. Yeah, I would see it as being extremely similar. Actually, I think that a poem is very much like a piece of music. It’s an artistic expression, which is an incredibly carefully crafted expression. It’s a distillation of ideas, emotions, impressions, into an incredibly concentrated form, poetry and music. I think a lot has been said about the relationship between them. But it could never be exaggerated. The closeness of poetry and music, it’s really, to me, they’re really almost two different manifestations of the same thing. There’s something that’s primordially, akin between those two artistic forms. So you want to know if the experience of reading a piece of music that is to say, reciting it, for example, is the same or is comparable to playing a piece of through composed music, and I think it very much is because there’s a similar process of needing to be able to touch the heart of the poet. You know, that’s why we learn poetry. And that’s why that’s one of the reasons why it’s such a valuable form of art, and human culture and human knowledge. Because something valuable is distilled in the form of the poem. It’s not really something that can be expressed in any other way than in the poem itself. It is that particular arrangement of words of sounds of images and associations, colors, that comes together to create that particular, I don’t know what to call it. Rasa. There’s a great word, the Indian word, rasa, which means so many things, including essence, and emotion. And that’s what a poem contains. In fact, I often think of music in the same terms in which I think of poetry. And I think, if I listen to different interpretations of a piece of music, and there’s one that I think touches me really affects me, I say to myself, yeah, that musician has touched the heart of the poet. And I think of the composer as a poet, a poet in tones, whereas the poet writes in words, as well. So this is more in your area than in mine. You could talk about musical syntax and music as a language. But I think, on the experiential side, this is something that I’m extremely familiar with i i live this every day. So I would say that it’s extremely similar when you learn a poem. You We learn so many things about the poet, you almost reconstitute the poet, you almost raise the poet from the dead in the act of being with the poem, it’s a very powerful thing. You know how the artist is present in his or her own creation, it is as true a mirror of the artists being the artists mind and personality is any other kind of reflection, truer than a physical reflection. So, it’s necessary to go through that process in order to be with the poem and for the words to come back to life to come to life. Again, it’s an act of perpetual resurrection, that is experienced through poetry. And of course, the dissolving of barriers, again, you like to talk about a lot of these things. I I know things like the experience of non duality, and so on. But I think that’s essential. Whether we’re talking about music or poetry, that’s ultimately what it is about through the vehicle. Through the experience of the poem or the piece of music, among other things, the boundaries between you as the interpreter and the composer of that work, dissolve. And then for whoever participates in that act of recreation, whoever listens, that boundary also dissolves. So all of us are united as the Indian aesthetic, theoretician say in the shared experience of the work of the artistic creation, and that is rasa.
Bradley Vines 6:37
Well, we’ve been treated to a definition of rasa that I don’t think can be equalled. Would it be possible to treat us yet more to an experience of a rasa and to create music or poetry? And don’t think you have a piano handy, but perhaps a poem? Would you be open to reading or reciting a poem?
Mira Sundara Rajan 7:06
Yes, I certainly would. So I have handy here, a small volume of Shelley’s poetry. And Shelley has a certain importance in our family history, because he was actually the favorite romantic poet of my great grandfather, see Subramania bodipy, the national poet of India and Maha cavae in the Tamil language, the most important poet of the 20th century in Tamil, he admired Shelley so much that he adopted a pen name of Shelley Dawson, which means he who is the devotee of Shelley, in fact, Dawson is a very strong word, it means almost the servant, the slave almost of Shelley, and there’s a long tradition in Indian literature whereby poets choose names like that to pay homage to a predecessor or a figure that they venerate. You know, for example, Kalida says another one. So for a while and after about at the the next great point after bought at the called himself bought at the Dawson. And of course, he was a great friend of my mother’s family, and my mother knew him personally very well and sang his songs as well. So Shelley has quite a place in our family history. And I’ll just read, I know this is going to be too long for the scope of your program. But the poem that my great grandfather loved was owed to the west wind. So I’ll read the beginning of ode to the west wind, although that does leave things hanging a little bit, but hopefully, we’ll just whet the appetite of your listeners to go and find the rest for themselves. It’s not difficult. So owed to the west wind, by Percy Bysshe. Shelley. Oh, wild west wind, thou breath of autumns being thou from whose unseen presence the leaves dead are driven, like ghosts from an enchanter fleeing yellow and black, and pale and hectic, red, pestilence stricken multitudes. Oh, Thou who chariot us to their dark wintry bed, the winged seeds, where they lie cold and low, each like a corpse within its grave until Dinah as your sister of the spring, shell blow her Clarion or the dreaming Earth, and Phil driving sweet buds like flocks to feed and air with living hues and odors, plane and Hill, wild spirit, which are moving everywhere, destroyer and preserver here or here. So that’s how he starts and I can’t help but wonder if the reference to destroyer and preserver must have resonated quite a bit with Bharati as well because of course, in the Hindu tradition, the three grape gods are Brahma, the creator, Shiva, the destroyer and Vishnu, the preserver and Shiva and Vishnu are actively worshipped in separate religious traditions, separate but of course, connected religious traditions, so destroyer and preserver hero here.
Bradley Vines 10:33
Thank you for that Mira. That was amazing.
Mira Sundara Rajan 10:37
Would you like one more poem?
Bradley Vines 10:38
Yes, absolutely.
Mira Sundara Rajan 10:41
One more that’s a little bit more accessible, perhaps for a short hearing session like this very famous sonnet by Shelley, which a number of your listeners probably learned in school, called Ozymandias. I met a traveller from an antique land who said, to vast and trunk close legs of stone stand in the desert. Near them on the sand, half sunk, a shattered visage lies whose frown, and wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command, tell that it’s sculptor well, those passions read, which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things. The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed and on the pedestal, these words appear. My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings. Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair. Nothing beside remains. Round the decay of that colossal wreck, boundless and bear, the lone and level sense stretch far away.
Bradley Vines 11:56
One touches on the theme of time,
Mira Sundara Rajan 11:59
yes, and also the the hubris of humanity, the arrogance of those who think that they have wealth and power and can command the obedience of others, the futility of their efforts to do so. Time is not only the Great destroyer, but the great equalizer. Time is the measure of man that is said. And here is the measurement of the great Ozymandias look on my works, ye mighty and despair. This unbelievable arrogance of that statement. And in the end, the lone and level sense, boundless and bear stretching as far as the eye can see and no trace of anything that this arrogant hubristic person thought was going to live forever destroyed in the blink of an eye, by the
progress of time, unstoppable progress, indeed,
simply an extraordinary poem by one of our greatest poets.
Bradley Vines 12:59
Thank you for sharing that. This is the Shelley that your great grandfather so admired, very much. So as a poet admiring another poet, from another language than his mother tongue. Yeah. And indeed, Bharti wrote in English quite a bit, and you edited and released with Penguin, yes. English writing.
Mira Sundara Rajan 13:24
Yeah, that’s right. And I’m very proud of that book, you know, for various reasons, but one of the important considerations is that bought it they had done significant amount of work in English, and it was collected in a book back in about 1937. So since 1937, there hasn’t been a reissue of a book, in which you can find the majority of things that bought the road in English, you know, conveniently for the modern reader. So, to think that I did that in 2021, on the occasion of oddities, 100 death anniversary. You know, it was decades after the first publication of that book. So it really was an immense privilege. And it made entirely possible by my mother and father, who saw that this publication project was waiting to happen and asked me to take responsibility for it. So thanks to them.
Bradley Vines 14:23
Now, that is a family affair. Yes, indeed ever heard? Yes, indeed. And being that you are in the lineage of Subramania Bharati and perhaps there has been some story that’s passed on through the generations about improvisation and, and the poet. Have you come across any such stories?
Mira Sundara Rajan 14:52
Oh, absolutely. That that is a wonderful question. And actually one of his poems which is very well known about Nanda Lala about Krishna was composed in an improvisational context. And it’s a wonderful story. So I believe this happened when? Well, I’m not actually sure of where he was when this happened, asked me again in a few months, and I will know because I’m in the process of researching bodies, biography, and no stone will remain unturned. I shall know all the details at the appropriate time. But for now, the important answer to your question actually relates to this incident, which is that there was a group of people in the village who used to go around town and sing budgets. Budgets are basically devotional songs. And, you know, it’s just the sort of thing you would see in Western countries. For example, when people go caroling at Christmas time, you know, this sort of idea was a community activity, they would go, you know, once a week or whatever, and the group would, would go from house to house and sing these devotional songs. So on one day, the group was going to go out and sing budgets, but the leader was not able to join on that day. So they came and asked Bharati, whether he would lead them in the round of button singing and of course, Bada bing, bada, he said, Of course, I will join in Yes, I’d be delighted to do so. So he took leadership of the group and as they were walking along, he composed a song and sang it, he composed a budget. And in Tamil, my mother has told me that that is called an archer Covey, which means a spontaneous poem and improvise poem.
Bradley Vines 16:46
They have a name for that?
Mira Sundara Rajan 16:48
Yes, absolutely. They do. You know, Tamil culture is not only very developed in the area of literature and music, of course. In fact, it’s yessuh Yael nada, hum, which is music, literature and drama, which I would say at a stretch includes dance as well in the Indian context. So very developed and also highly organized. So there’s a name for everything in Tamil as far as literary or musical phenomena are concerned. I’m sure I don’t even know you know, all of those names, but my mother certainly did. And I took Covey is what she says is Covey means poem and the idea of creating it spontaneously. So that is what he did on that occasion,
Bradley Vines 17:36
amazing. I get nervous just thinking about being out in a group and everyone’s looking at them to come up with the budget that everyone is out, it also is going to sing along, going around door to door.
Mira Sundara Rajan 17:53
So the song that he composed, that he improvised, is, as I said, it’s about an underline, it’s Lord Krishna. And there are certain conventions in India about him certain colors that are associated with him, so his skin is considered to be dark. So in this case, it’s the black color that bought it, the associates with him, or dark green, the color of the leaves as well. So just to give you an idea, you’ll see how he’s done it immediately how it sounds like an improvised poem, which of course later on he committed to writing. So he says Caqueta Heaney, Lane, the color of the crow’s wing, Ninja and cardio Neerim thrown to the Nether Lala, I see the black color, that is you. Nonetheless, Allah. Then the next one goes in the green of the leaves. All the trees surrounding me I see the green color that makes me think of you that I see you in that green color on the Lala. So the poem continues on like that. This is how he progresses until he gets to the end of the poem. So it’s very simple. And then at the end, all of a sudden, it gets elevated to the level of a mystical experience. So he’s walking, he’s observing the world. Whatever he sees reminds him of nonetheless, Allah He sees nonetheless, in everything in the darkness of the crows weighing in the leaves of the trees, in all the sounds that he hears. And finally, he elevates the poem to the level of a mystical experience. He writes, or sings the choral merrily vital under lala land in a theme doom in bum ponder that Nanda Lala. So, T is fire veral is finger So he says, When I place my finger in the fire in the flame when I place my finger in the flame on the Lala, whoa, I feel your burning happiness I feel the burning happiness of union with you. If I can paraphrase it that way, I feel the burning happiness of being with you. And he uses a certain diction in Tamil that is not really translatable, so he says de COVID Li vital nonetheless Allah if I placed my finger in the fire, in 19, Domian, boom, ponder that, ah, and Allah, Allah ponder that, ah, it’s the wonder of the experience, ah, I feel it, I feel the wonder of have that burning happiness. And it’s not really something that we can explain or analyze. It’s simply an experience that the poet is describing, which is out of the ordinary. I would call it a mystical experience.
Bradley Vines 21:15
You’ve definitely opened us to the possibilities of a poetry. And it’s amazing how you’re able to unlimited share that across languages, by the way that is really wonderful that indeed creates this opposition in the mind that makes the whole construct of, of self implode or explode.
Mira Sundara Rajan 21:41
Yeah, I love the way you express that actually, I guess, you could very much understand something like this. I always think of it as being part of the tradition of mystical poetry in Tamil and in India, of course, and I wouldn’t say that I’m deeply learned in that. But I’ve learned a lot about it through about at the end through my mother, who was deeply learned in, in this tradition. But I also think about the mystics in the Christian tradition. You know, I was named after Teresa of Avila. So I think that this is a, you know, a writer like William Blake, these are, these are experiences that take just the form that you’re describing. And the way you put it makes me think of Japanese culture. A little I know about that. And about the whole idea of the the Zen approach the colons, the idea of breaking apart the normal cognitive processes and rhythms of the mind and being able to transcend that in in some way. I understand from my mother that bought the really admired Japanese poetry, by the way, he really admired the Haiku and wrote some of them himself, is what she told me that more. Yeah, presumably not in Japanese. I don’t think he knew many, many languages, but I don’t think Japanese was one of them. He had no opportunity to learn Japanese
Bradley Vines 23:03
was well aware of the culture. Yeah, please. Yeah, he
Mira Sundara Rajan 23:07
was enormously well read and really had an insatiable curiosity about what was happening in literature. You know, he read an English and French in the original, he read major German writers, either through English or in the original, I think, through English translation, though. And then he was extremely learned in Indian languages and Indian poetry, which is a, you know, there are just oceans of literature there to be studied and to learn from and enjoy.
Bradley Vines 23:37
Well, thank you for the thimble, the ocean you’ve shared with us today, because it is really inspiring. And, and of course, it’s the experiential side of what is being discovered and, and investigated through research with the neuroscience of consciousness in various ways. And improvisation is part of that is these tools are starting to give us a feel for the neurobiology that underlies those subtle experiences that you’re able to access and share through poetry and music. At least there’s hope that we might form more and more of understanding from from that perspective as well or that level of description.
Mira Sundara Rajan 24:27
Well, I really think Bharati would have supported you very much in that endeavor. Because he was, among other things, a great believer in scientific inquiry. And he thought that that was extremely valuable on the path towards understanding more about ourselves and about the conditions of human life. And he thought that a lot could be accomplished, he felt that it anything can be accomplished through scientific inquiry and that that is a path for the development of human knowledge that is very He distinguished and valuable as a path. So he was a great proponent of scientific knowledge as well.
Bradley Vines 25:08
I’m not surprised. And speaking of spreading knowledge and insight, do you have anything coming up that you can draw the attention of listeners two books on the horizon performances. Other such activities, you could describe?
Mira Sundara Rajan 25:27
Yeah, quite quite a few things, although they, some of them will require patience and remembering on the part of anyone who’s kind enough to take an interest. I am working on modiface biography, which is a project I’ve inherited from my mother. So that’s going to be coming out with Penguin, India, initially, hopefully, later in 2024, or early 2025. And in terms of music, I have a performance coming up in San Francisco at a an organization, a wonderful organization called the noontime concerts, which holds concerts in a San Francisco church, I believe it’s old St. Mary’s Cathedral, every Tuesday at lunchtime. And these are completely free concerts that are beautifully presented, anyone can just walk in off the street and sit down for 45 minutes or an hour of music. So they’ve asked me to do a small recital for them. And I expect to be performing there on August 15. And I also have a podcast that I’m creating at the moment, which is a podcast about culture in a very broad sense. But it just offers perspectives on all kinds of interesting issues of the moment, as well as historical perspectives. And basically any kind of perspective, you can think of literary perspectives, musical perspectives, and so on. It’s all going to come under the umbrella of this podcast, with the slow march of time, episode by episode, but right now, I’m planning to do to release very soon episodes about the repatriation of cultural property, which has been a big issue, a lot of talk has been happening around artifacts from Africa here in the United States. And I’m actually interviewing an absolutely wonderful person who works as a legal officer and works very closely with the management team of the National Museums of Rwanda. And I also have an upcoming interview with groan nishtar, who is the daughter of a very distinguished Norwegian artist, Carl Nisha, who was a close collaborator of Pablo Picasso, and helped Picasso to realize in three dimensions work that he wanted to convert from two dimensional designs into large scale, monumental three dimensional works, and grow as a wonderful speaker and an art historian who knew Pablo Picasso quite well when she was growing up. So please look out for that. I should be starting to release the first couple of episodes sometime in July. Thanks.
Bradley Vines 28:11
Outstanding. We’ll include links to as many of these items as we can thank you, and to your website, Professor mira.com. Yep, just looking forward to following your activities is, is amazing things that you’re doing. So thank you again for your time and for sharing all of this multifaceted talent that you’ve developed and nurtured and are so keen to share.
Mira Sundara Rajan 28:39
Thank you so much, Bradley. It’s been a real pleasure talking to you and I hope that your listeners will find this to have been interesting.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
THE NEUROSCIENCE OF IMPROVISATION 