In this episode, we present an interview with the magnificent Tommy Campbell. Tommy is a drummer who has performed with Dizzy Gillespie, Sonny Rollins, Jimmy Smith, the Mingus Big Band, and many other world-class musicians. He also leads the Vocal Eyes ensemble, which presents an innovative blend of percussion and vocal performance. In our conversation, Tommy shares his perspective on the necessity of improvisation in daily life and music. He tells us about his time with Dizzy Gillespie, how music has played a healing role in his life, and how he developed his world-famous “porkestra”, which is this delightful polyrhythmic puppet show he performs with squeaky toys.
The musical interlude was written and composed by Bradley Vines on alto and baritone saxophones. The first quote is by Andy Clark from his book The Experience Machine (https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Experience-Machine-Audiobook/B0B646HS6N?action_code=ASSGB149080119000H&share_location=pdp/). The second quote is by Alan Watts from his lecture Coincidence of Opposites (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLI54vXxfic&t=2s/).
The Porkestra snippet is from one of many live performances available on YouTube (https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxuYLgwlqFVQzhn9izWjfHT1Wib_J1ejkA/).
The drum solo at the end is by Tommy Campbell from the opening track for his My Heart album (https://music.apple.com/us/album/the-night-has-a-thousand-eyes/346151132?i=346151143/).
Unedited Otter.ai transcription:
Bradley Vines 0:00
Greetings all. We’ve got a phenomenal guest today. Tommy Campbell is a drummer extraordinaire, who has performed with Dizzy Gillespie, Sonny Rollins and Jimmy Smith, the Mingus big band, and many other world class musicians. He also leads the vocalize ensemble which presents an innovative blend of percussion and vocals in our conversation, and Tommy shares his perspective on the necessity of improvisation in daily life and music. He tells us about his time with Dizzy Gillespie, how music has played a healing role in his life, and also how he developed his world famous poor Kustra, which is this delightful polyrhythmic puppet show of sorts that he performs with squeaky toys. If you ever have a chance to see him doing that, I can just about guarantee, it’ll bring a smile to your heart. Tommy is a wonderful storyteller and a lovely person. Here is our conversation with Tommy Campbell.
Andy Clark 1:17
Both the brain and world become equal partners in the construction of thought, experience, and action.
Alan Watts 1:36
If you describe carefully the behavior, then you cannot do so without at the same time describing the behavior of the environment.
Bradley Vines 1:43
Where are you from originally. And now you’re you’re in New York,
Tommy Campbell 1:49
I live in Weehawken, New Jersey now, which is right next to New York. I’m right next to the Hudson River. Five Minutes from New York City. I’m back and forth all the time, all the time, different hours of the day,
Bradley Vines 2:05
to keep up with you, you can find you at smalls zoo, find you a blue note, find you at all, all the ripe locations. You’ve just had a really rich life and career in music. There’s some really interesting insights that are coming out of the research that are revealing what’s happening in the brain when you or someone like you, an improviser is entering in and out of different states of mind, you could say, and there seem to be some really striking relationships between what’s happening in the brain during improvisation. And what happens during dreams, dreaming, and also, during certain kinds of psychedelic states that are occasioned by psilocybin and, and the like, these kinds of classical psychedelics. So the neuro imaging is now helping us to understand the neurobiology of consciousness and look at the connections across these different states of mind in really interesting ways. And meditation plays into it as well. So that’s, that’s the background
Tommy Campbell 3:21
of a heavy bag. Man. I’m just going along with
Bradley Vines 3:25
trying to learn this to it. I’ve got experience as a neuroscientist and also experience as a musician. So I understand what you’re doing, at least with appreciation. And I understand quite a bit of the neuroscience. I’m trying to connect these worlds basically. You don’t need to know neuroscience to play polyrhythms clearly, you’re managing just fine.
Tommy Campbell 3:50
Yeah, I was just thinking while we were them’s Yeah, okay. But yeah, I just want you to you just leave me on. I just want to, I just want to help Bradley, I just want to help. I’ll never forget how we hit it off. And you know, we definitely vide together and enjoy each other’s company.
Bradley Vines 4:08
So I want to ask you about your experience of improvisation how it has evolved over time and in developed, I’ll be asking about how you help other people discover improvisation. I know you’re a wonderful and experienced educator. Okay, to start off. May I ask if you could just tell us kind of your biography how you got to where you are,
Tommy Campbell 4:36
you know, my upbringing, thank goodness. My, my mom and dad. Emphasis on my mom, but my dad, you know, moved. You moved out when I was 10. So my mom became my dad and my mom. My uncle is Jimmy Smith, a jazz organist. So I you know, I was raised on him without even knowing who he really was, you know, my dad was a he was in the Navy before I was born, and then he was like, he was a lounge singer. Let’s say he did the hotel circuits and and he did play Oregon, but not to have it be three. He played like Hammond M three. And he was really more of a singer, I think, than an organist. But he did play organ and he repaired organs. You repair my uncle Jimmy so many times. So what else? My mom was a My mom was a career. One of the few black career women in our community neighborhood. He was a courthouse clerk. She She was artists. You know, she, she, she typed 123 or 24 words a minute. On one of those, you know, old typewriters shorthand note hand. She was an artist. So, you know, she, she did? She did a lot of advertisements for events, you know, certain events, they would ask her to make a poster, you know, you know, as my sister was very smart move younger, one year younger than me. Very smart. And so smart. I give you one quick example. One day my mother came to pick me and my sister up from school. I was in the third grade. She was in second grade. My sister Karen. We’re getting back into getting a backseat. We’re driving home. My mom turns around. So my mom turns around and she’s driving. I Tommy Karen, how was school today? Find mom. And he said, Tommy, Did you learn anything new today? And I was ready for I was ready for what was the biggest word that I could spell at the time. And that was something and I spelled it out for s o m e t h i n g and of course her being a teacher and my mother. She was so supportive, you know? Oh, Tommy. That’s great, son. That’s a big word for you. You really getting the hang of this throwing? Yes. Excellent. Keep it up, son. And what about you, Karen, Did you learn anything new today? Yeah, Mommy, I learned a new word. And what word is that? antidisestablishmentarianism. A, and she’s, she spelled it out as if she was singing a song. And my mom had to pull the car over, you know, and pull out the dictionary under the seat of the car, you know? Okay, hold on, Cam. Let me check it. Okay. I smell it again. You know? My, my mom had the money to get me in Berkeley. My uncle Jimmy had the credibility and you know, so they work here is that Jimmy Smith’s nephew. So I was accepted into Berkeley. As long as my mom paid, paid for it, and she borrowed money from the bank and so forth. And my sister on the other hand, she got a full scholarship to Boston College and her after her. After her first year, IBM found her and picked her up and had her working at IBM after school, you know, what, three years and then she worked another 20 years at IBM, you know, multimillionaire, blah, blah, blah. Two kids and no, you know, yeah. So. So we were quite the opposite. But you know, we kind of need each each other, you know, she helped me see in what, what she is about. And I guess I helped her see into what I was about, so I have no doubt she passed away of breast cancer when she was 44. Oh, no, my mother passed away. But my father passed away at 56. And my mother passed away at 67 Maybe 68. So my uncle Jimmy, on the other hand, who’s a who’s a jazz musician? Completely? Oh, he lived to be 80. You know? So, um, so yeah, so it adds a little, there’s a little, little background, I guess. I probably got thrown, I’d probably veered off course of your question. But
Bradley Vines 9:44
it’s great to get a sense of where you’re coming from the support and, and also that you’ve kind of felt out where your strengths were early on, with the help of your sister kind of seeing how you Got a balance? And I’ve no doubt that you, you are the coolest and greatest Big Brother of all time.
Tommy Campbell 10:10
I always asked her up and yeah. And so
Bradley Vines 10:13
that’s that kind of thrust you and then through Berkeley obviously it was just off to the races from there for you
Tommy Campbell 10:19
off to the races. Quick story about Berkeley and that is that okay. You know how I felt about school so when I was accepted into Berkeley, I was auditioning by Gary Burton. When I got accepted into Berkeley, you know, I was looking, they said, Well, what, what course you want to take? So they handed me the brochure, and I was looking at the names of the courses. I was looking at the description of the courses they made sure. Okay, up No, that has math in it not doing that. Okay. Oh, God has history. Science and nope, not doing that. Oh, no, that has math in it. And English. Nope, nope. This Oh, how to play your instrument and just be good. That one. And I looked up and it was called instrumental performance. diploma. That’s it. But I just want to play drums. Yeah, yeah. So So I did four years at Berkeley, three, about three months before I was supposed to graduate. Finally, I’m mom’s home, she’s happy, you know, I’m gonna graduate with a diploma, she knew that she knew the difference between a diploma and a degree. I knew, but I really didn’t care. I really did at that time. And even and even now, but that’s, you know, 40 years later. So, three, three, about three months before I’m supposed to graduate. And I already have, you know, a lot of local games that I’m playing with half of my teachers, you know, stuff. And Berkeley called me up to the administration office, and they said, Tommy, we just realized that you’re six credits short, and you’re not going to be graduate. We’re going to have to have you come back for one more semester. Don’t worry, we’ll get your mom to borrow more money from us. And from the bank, we’ll figure out the finances. And I was stunned. And so I’m walking home. And I’m thinking, I gotta call mom and tell her I’m not going to graduate. But I knew I knew if I called her that night, that she wouldn’t be able to sleep. So I said, I’ll wait until the next day. And the next day, Dizzy Gillespie called me out of the blue and said, Tommy, you want to join the band? We’re going to Brazil. In a week. That’s it?
Bradley Vines 12:46
No, that was not a hard decision. I imagined. No, you had great news to share with your mom. That’s fantastic.
Tommy Campbell 12:56
And later, I went back 10 years later, I went back to teach at Berkeley, you know, they, they asked me to teach air show I was a student from 75 to 79. I was a teacher from 85 to 89. Okay,
Bradley Vines 13:09
so you’ve had a good eight years, with Berkeley in various capacities.
Tommy Campbell 13:16
And the President of Berkeley who expanded it 30 times, from what from when it was when I was a student to President and a Berkeley, Roger Brown. He was my former drum student. It happened. It so happened that he was actually a fundraising specialist who was a drummer, and he wanted a drum lesson from me. So he would come and take drum lessons from me. And he took several, maybe for a half a year or something. He took drum lessons from me. And then later, I looked around and he’s a president and a Berklee College. Wow. So that was what? We were just working on power tools, man.
Bradley Vines 14:04
Yeah, He parlayed para diddles into the President’s role at the university. That’s amazing. You never know what’s going to happen over the person across the way, sitting across from you, indeed. beautiful story. And so I guess you’ve been improvising from the beginning as part of your music practice. But how did that evolve? As you worked with Dizzy Gillespie and later, so many other well, your uncle, I guess to start with, and then so many illuminate fingers? Yeah.
Tommy Campbell 14:49
Yeah. My uncle he was my uncle until until I got into Berkeley. And one of my first classes was called listening and analysis. And he said today we’re going to, we’re going to analyze Duke Ellington. Maybe Stan Getz, and Jimmy Smith. And I’m sitting back going, Okay, I, you know, I’ve heard of at least two of them. And then he started and then eventually you got to Uncle Jimmy was Jimmy Smith and him, you know, and I said, Man, that sounds like my uncle. Yeah, like that. I you know, I didn’t make the connection at all. Yeah, and so I was, I was shocked, you know, that that was the same person. But Dizzy hired me because I because I could play funk. That’s why Harvey. And he, when I was in my second or third year at Berkeley, he came maybe yeah, he came, he drove with his friend, because he doesn’t he didn’t drive well at all. He had a friend drive them up to Boston. And they came to see a group that was called TCB. The Tommy Campbell band, featuring Kevin Eubanks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very, you know, like, one of my best friends just spoke to him yesterday. And this and that band was like a mixture of funk like, you know, calling the gang Sly and the Family Stone Parliament Funkadelic maybe you know, and, you know, r&b, a Motown What have you found Earth Wind and Fire and the Baja Vishnu orchestra, fusion. And Kevin was a huge Mahavishnu Orchestra. Fan, and we played all my office Yorkers just songs basically. So a lot of so you have odd meters. And you’re improvising on top of the odd meters, you know, so, so a lot of my improvisation comes from there. Technically. You know, and then, of course, playing with Dizzy Gillespie, you know, I got the jazz improvisation going. So, um, I don’t know, really exactly where it started my improvisation. Because, you know, to me, even when we were copying, even as a teenager, when we’re copying songs that we liked from our favorite groups, there was improvisation in those songs, you know, there was short, guitar solo or sax solo or something. And we weren’t good enough to play that solo. Exactly. So we had to improvise it, you know, trying to try to get close to it when that so that’s probably how some some of us started on a amateur level. And then professional level was with Kevin and you know, our Mahavishnu Orchestra, copy cover band, you know, and this he came up and he hurt our band. He listened to both sets, you know? And, and then my first time sitting in with Dizzy Gillespie. You know, I’m already I’m in my second year at Berkeley and I’m already this play salt Pinot student Cornell mine burps works in Cushing, Manteca, you know, and night in Tunisia. And by the third set, they were tired of playing jazz. And when they said, Okay, we’re gonna bring a little Tommy Campbell up there. And we played all funk. Cool in the gang, funky stuff. James Brown, buddy miles down by the river. We didn’t play any Jazz at all. I was all ready to play my brushes and stuff. And we played all fun. And afterwards he does. He took me in the back in the dressing room, and he talked to me, you know? So, you know, what are you doing up here in Boston? Well, I’m at Berkeley. Oh, really? So when you graduate? I say, Well, Mike, I didn’t even I couldn’t even think that far ahead. And I said, Well, I if everything goes right, I guess in two years. So, um, but we what? I wanted to just get that out of the way because I’ve come to a conclusion. Now presently, in New York City, man, if you can’t improvise, you better get the hell out of here, man. I like every roll every regulation. There’s so many, you know, changes last minute changes in the subway and streets and directions and people and oh, it’s crazy. If you can’t improvise in New York, get out. You won’t make it or two. weeks, you won’t make it. Because all the schedules are written out, supposedly. But when you get to, let’s say the subway, for example, you know, in a train to be to see it, and then the after G. And it’s supposed to run this way and that way and by man, you don’t really know until the train pulls into the station man. And when the train pulls into the station, there could be an announcement. Ladies and gentlemen, the F fly, the F train. This is the F train, but we’re running on a line. And it’s going to stop at 61st Street. And there’ll be no more service. So you’ll have to either you know, take the the C train, walk through another avenue and you know, there’s a bus that will take you to another you know, it’s crazy.
Bradley Vines 20:53
So you’re saying improvisation is a part of life.
Tommy Campbell 20:57
In Midtown in Midtown. There’s so many electronic vehicles, bikes, skateboards, scooters, mopeds, city bikes, you know, we didn’t even get the cars yet. You know, I mean, it’s nuts, right? Three wheelers, three and a half wheelers, you know, two wheelers, one wheelers, you know, and they’re going, oh, you know, eighth, Eighth Avenue goes up. Seventh Avenue goes down. Yeah. Ninth Avenue goes down. 10th Avenue goes up. But these bicycles and scooters that they’re like, man, we’re just bicycles. You know, we, we can go anyway, eight months ago, I was coming home from a rehearsal with Nat Abberley Jr. I’m coming home. I’m walking up Eighth Avenue. I get to 37th Street. I’m about to cross but I’m looking both ways. And here comes his bicycle messenger guy going like 22 miles an hour, because there was five witnesses who saw this. And he’s dodging off the sidewalk in between people, you know, back onto the street, into the bike lane back on the sidewalk, you know, and he hits me at 22 miles an hour. Oh, we all fly up in the air. I hit the ground first the bicycle falls on me and he falls on the bike. He immediately he immediately gets up, grabs his bicycle and takes off. It took me 30 minutes to get off the ground. There was five people’s five good samaritan standing over me saying hey, man, you okay, you will call EMS with a blah, blah, blah. I’m moaning. I was going to ground for 30 minutes terrible. EMS people came to make a long story short, EMS people came they gave me the most basic checkup that you ever want to see in your life. You know, it was I said, you want to check the area where the pain is coming from you say oh, no, we can’t do that. So I said, bye bye. And I crawled home and moaned myself home. Literally. When I got home, it took me it took me 45 minutes just to get my clothes off. When I got home. The next day, I suppose we had a gig. From the rehearsal that I did today before I had a gig where in this case on you kind of unusual is that it’s not completely unusual. I get paid in advance sometimes. But this gig, it was a over the over average paying gig. It was a good paying gig more than good. And the leader net hourly Jr. paid me in full at the rehearsal. And it paid so well that I hired a drum roadie to do the gig to do all my drum tech stuff. So So I got two people now that if I don’t do this gig, he’s going to have a drummer that doesn’t know their music and their roadie is going to be out of a gig that he you know, set aside time for. So I said well, instead of going to the hospital like most smart people would do. I did the gig already got paid for it. And like I said I would have been leaving two parties in you know, in. So I did the gig. I told my roadie, man, you’re gonna have to do everything, everything like you know more than normal everything. And he did. I took a three Advil and took a couple of hits. So we do two or three hits a week and I I played with one hand, my with my elbow pinned to my ribs where it was hurting. And I did the gig. I did the gig. The next day, my great friend, Ray Anderson from bonus, took me to the hospital. We get to the hospital, and we did a CAT scan to find out today I had three broken ribs and a punctured lung. Tommy Yeah, tambor sent puncture. Yeah, tender Santo, but it was still a hole in my lungs, and three broken ribs. They had me spent, they had me stay overnight. They had me spend the night they said, because we told them I had, I was booked to do a tour with Ray Anderson in five days later, I was booked to do a European tour. And I really wanted to do it, not only did it pay well, but first and foremost, for foremost, it was Ray Anderson, one of my best friends favorite people, one of my absolute favorite bands to play with. And we were looking, we were looking forward to the store for like, over half a year easily. Couldn’t wait for it to happen. So now I’m trying to we’re trying to figure out should we and can Can I do this tour, we asked the doctors, the doctor said, Look, we’ll keep you overnight. If you if the if the hole in the lungs starts to get smaller, you can go, if it stays the same, it gets bigger. You can’t go shade overnight, the hole got smaller. The next day the doctor walked the hole is almost closed if you want to go he said I wouldn’t do it. But if you want to go you could you could do it. So I went we did and five days later I went on a European tour 17 concerts in 17 days in 17 different cities eating at all the finest restaurants in each city, you know Berlin and Beale or Geneva Hamburg 17 gigs. The first couple of days are moaning every if I if I was just even breathe a sneeze. I would Oh, you know, it’s three broken ribs, you know, and my band members. They can’t they they carry me through it. They did everything mcareavey, they put it on my coat, they opened the door, they carry my luggage show. And he also made fun of me because every time a little shake, they go, oh, you know. So everybody’s happy this morning. So, but each day, because of the music, I was forced to play music that I love and what I love to do, and each day, I got a little bit better each day, a little bit better. And I’m starting to play with both arms down both hands and I’m starting to move a little bit, you know, like, you know, day 10 Maybe starting to move a little to the side, you know, day 12 By the end of the tour de 17 gait I was 80% I was 80% jumping up and down. That’s amazing jumping up and down. The best treatment better than going to stand in the hospital where they would have you hooked on pain better than Shane at home by myself when I got you know, no assistance at all. I was on the road with traveling doing what I love to do. And by the end of that tour, I was 80% great story. The best minutes. So I know I got thrown I knew I feel you all track. But still I had to improvise injured you know, you know, I did the first gig like this, you know, one hand you know, and two feet. You know, I didn’t you know I had to improvise what I normally do. I couldn’t do it and
Bradley Vines 28:35
find a way a new way.
Tommy Campbell 28:39
So, yeah, so So that started with being in New York City. More and more man if you can improvise, man from the music stage right on out to going home to be you know, if you can improvise, you know, your neighbor something street, you know, road closed. red smoke coming in from Canada. You know what I mean? You know, you know, yeah, man.
Bradley Vines 29:11
Yeah, so that’s absolutely apt because this ultimately is it’s a practice that you seem to be doing. We’re always improvising continually. But yeah,
Tommy Campbell 29:24
yeah, I was in New York, but somebody who lives in Deadwood South Dakota, they might say we have to improvise to because you know, there might be a deer one day the next day, next day there’s a bear the next day is exactly whatever you know, alligator you know I mean
Bradley Vines 29:42
that’s that’s that’s a that’s a beautiful story. And also it’s point points to the the pain relieving properties and healing properties of music. We will never know because we couldn’t control study with you sitting and just waiting for the healing and you traveling and touring, but I suspect that moving and hearing the music, it has all of these positive effects on stress reduction. Reduction. Absolutely.
Tommy Campbell 30:16
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. When Dizzy Gillespie was he, when he was in the hospital, his last time, he came out of the hospital, he was very underweight, you know, very thin, His cheeks were sagging, you know. As soon as he got home, he called his guitar player, and he called me and we, he said, Come over, we’re playing, you know, and he started to put his mouthpiece on his lips, and try to get his sound back. And then he just started trying to play again, it’s just like, you know, immediately, immediately came home, you know, hug his wife kissed his wife, and called called us and he started playing immediately, immediately. And it wasn’t until then, he started to started to look like himself. After a couple of days. And maybe a week or two later, he was he was doing his gig again, he was doing his first gig, you know, and, and about three months after that he passed away, you know, but each day you got better and better and better, you know, but, you know, it was time forgot how old he was when he passed away. But, you know, it was his time, but he, you know, he was going to play until until the end, like, like most musicians, you know, most artists, you know, people, most people who, who do what they do what they love to do, they want to you know, it not only you know, it helps them live, makes them happy, but it becomes more physical and mental.
Bradley Vines 31:58
The mental side, and yeah, it’s beautiful. Yeah,
Tommy Campbell 32:04
I know. I’m rambling Bradley. So Real Men Real Me. GM come back to me, you know,
Bradley Vines 32:09
you were one of the first calls that he looked at to you as a musical rehabilitation partner, for example. But that’s really
Tommy Campbell 32:22
so yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And when I saw dizzy, that that made me I mean, I am 100% Convinced that what’s going to keep me alive and happy. And as healthy as I can be. Is playing my drums and playing gigs that I love playing that game said I would do for free. That’s my key. When musicians asked me, Hey, Tommy, were you working? Were you working tonight? Man, I answered the question. But man, I don’t want to call that work. When I just got finished doing before you call that’s working. I was practicing, doing my exercise up and down. And same thing, this learning this song actually learning to bars and a song called Humpty Dumpty, written by a career for me, for me only, that’s what I call work. That’s a personal personal, other people, you know, they have families and kids to raise and you know, I understand they’re going to work they’re going to play their, their their horn so they can make money and also be happy I get it, you know, to do. But for me, and I just gave said that I do do do gigs that Johnny was doing is because it’s paying $250 or whatever, you know, and I tried to make the best of it and get the hell out of there. You know, but to gauge that the gigs that unfortunate because I don’t do many gigs like that most of the gigs I do, I would do it for free.
Bradley Vines 34:06
So you you just spent your practice routine, your time working on two bars of that chick Korea song? Because this gives us some insight on what’s involved in in developing the patience the the focus and and giving time to small bits of material. Is that the case? Is that what you are doing? Is that how you approach your practice?
Tommy Campbell 34:36
Yes, yes, it can be anywhere from one note to a few notes, key notes to bars, affection. It could be a different meter. Let’s say a song is in four, four. Now it’s in five, four, you know, could be instrumentation. It could be you The instruments that I’m playing like, you know, you know, I practice on that. But, but but I could be playing half of that a quarter of that age of that. I enjoy doing gigs, too with just a snare drum in the cymbal. If they let me in sometimes they let me. Yeah, you know, but boy is challenging, because they want you to sound like you have the full set. But I’ve seen some, some of it forces you to get more out of one sound source, you know, especially on the spot in front of people in front of your peers who will look up to you and you know, expecting to hear a certain quality of sound coming from. So yeah, so it’s great when it works. Sometimes it doesn’t know and then like, oh, man, I’ll never play with this a snare symbol again. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, yeah, the
Bradley Vines 36:09
thing you touched on is kind of the joy music you’re you’re you’re playing it’s not work in your mind. And I know that you bring joy to other people because really a lot of it and I’ve seen it you bring great humor and joy to your playing and people just love that. And I wanted to ask you about one thing for which you are world famous the this the squeaky toys that you bring on stage? How you just curious just,
Unknown Speaker 36:43
yeah, the orchestra
Bradley Vines 36:50
How did you come up with that? Like, what was the creative moment of discovery? And then and then how did you develop this just as kind of a case study of your creative process?
Tommy Campbell 37:01
Yeah, um, I was buying a, I went to the dollar store. I was living in Tokyo at the time. And their dollar store is called the Calculate shop. yaku is 100 and yen, juggling shop. I go in there, trying to save some money. You know, my kid is only about two years old. So let me buy some nice, easy simple things for him. I bought a few toys and I’m walking into the cashier. And one of them fell on the floor on my way there and I and Simon some Italian taneous Lee, I stepped on it. And it made a sound that made me go hey, man, and almost sounded like our Hermeto Pasquali, you know, a Brazilian quicker or something. And I said, Man, I’m gonna try this on my gig tonight, man. So I took that it was a little alligator with little alligator, little plastic alligator. And so I kept that gave my son or the other choice kept, I took it to my gig. And the alligator was, you know, it’s thin. It’s not like big and round, it’s thin. And I looked over at my hi hat, cymbals, and I said, Man, you put that in there, put it just put it in there. And we’re gonna go get. And yeah, and I start you know, and I play this little Brazilian pseudo sort of groove. And I got this little, almost fake sounding quicker, you know, Santa, and it kind of went together and the band members, there’s just my first audience, the band members, they liked it. The audience liked it. And of course, they were giggling and stuff. There’s the alligator now in my eye, you know, the next night that I played in that club, one of the customers who was there the night before, brought me a pig. Yeah, now everybody’s sitting in the zone. And they brought me a pig. And it made a sound and everything I said, Okay, let me see what I can do with it. And that and that, and that’s, that’s really how it happened, you know, the alligator first and then a pig. And every time I perform somebody every well, this is like 20 years ago when it happened. So I say every, every couple of months, several months. Somebody gives me a present animal, you know, a duck, you know, a frog, and they all make some kind of little noise. And, and then on along with that, then now I’m looking in pet stores because they’re dog toys. So now I’m looking at pet stores, testing the sound, you know, and I get a few I was in Switzerland, I bought a duck in Switzerland, it was
Bradley Vines 40:03
it was 62 That’s an investment.
Tommy Campbell 40:08
It was 60. In Switzerland, in Geneva. I watch for this way, right? Really 60 $62 I bought another that was somewhere around 40 $40. But that’s doing the high end, most of them range from about 10 to $20. You know, and, and so now when I travel, I go to pet stores, you know, and I got, I got an animal, I got a Animal Hospital in there, some of them are broken one at one wing, you know, one leg, a lot of them blow out their throat because, you know, they, you know, their throat is gone, you know. So, but, and I play in and I do I do this, as you know, I mean, kids love it, I do this elementary schools, they just freak, you know, but, but grownups, they flee just as much, you know, in clubs.
Bradley Vines 41:12
And it just connects, it’s just sound Yeah, you, you bring it to the elements, because you you and your work, you focus on the prime all the voice, you know, through your, your work, the vocalize ensemble and your drum drum voice, and you bring in these toys that you just show, you know, we’re surrounded by surround sound, you know, this, everything is an instrument. Starting with your way you move your voice, it really is, you know, making percussion sounds when you take a footstep, it’s the whole, the whole world is your instrument. So it’s such a beautiful kind of metaphor, and definitely experience to see you do that.
Tommy Campbell 41:56
But a lot of people are realizing that now especially like with things like the iPhone, I mean, you know, you know, now you can become a musician with just a phone. You know, whether or not you’re educated or studied, or how much of a musician you are, that’s another story. But to make music, your own music, all you need is a phone. I, you know, and like you said, you don’t need that footsteps and whatnot, but to but to actually, you know, make a living or make money or whatever, start a band, or use a phone, hey, starting a band. Well, what do you sound like? Well, I’m on Instagram, Facebook, social media, you know, boom, boom, boom, bang, how many hits? How many followers?
Bradley Vines 42:44
So things are changing over time. And it’s interesting to see how that happens. But we’re always going to need the power of rhythm. And it’s good to know you’re there to provide that. Yeah, you’re in, you’re unique and indispensable. You got your warehouse of stories, and you’re a storyteller, which is what musicians can be sometimes. And when we’re lucky,
Tommy Campbell 43:11
I got some stories. Randy, boy, do I have some stories?
Bradley Vines 43:16
I want to hear all of them. But I wanted to ask also about so you’ve lived you lived in Japan for years. And obviously, you’ve traveled everywhere. You mentioned Brazil, obviously Russia and throughout Europe, North America, onward. What is how do you feel different in places when you were playing in Japan and improvising? Indeed, as is part and parcel to what you do, versus being in New York or or being in South America? Do you feel yourself change? How How does your experience change with place?
Tommy Campbell 43:55
Walk it’s a it’s a give and take, it changes you. You know, it will change you first you’ll start to change which will make you know what, you’re going that direction or or it’ll start to change you you know, and you have to go in that direction. You know, for example, you know, the song giant steps? Yes. Right. Yeah, right. Well, I in Japan, you know, some some old jazz musician when I was with dizzy or somebody or SHINee you know, they told me, you know, we’re talking shop, you know, probably on the road in a bus or something on a plane. And you know, there’s a lot of little jazz tricks, you know, in music within the music, you know, that relate to real life, you know, for example, giant steps. The song has 26 melody notes. He has also 26 letters in the alphabet, so why not sing the alphabet on giant steps? So, I kind of brought that to the attention of my Japanese students. And they want to learn English anyway. Not to mention that wanting to learn jazz. So, A, B, C, D, E, rather than A, B, C, D, E, F, G, you know, when you’re seeing it that way, it holds that some of the letters hold. H I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R S, T, U. V, but we’re giant steps. It’s different notes are emphasized, you know, and a lot of Americans who no giant steps, they haven’t they get tongue twisted, say, including myself when I first tried it. So it’s a very tricky and fun thing. If you know somebody who knows jazz or giant steps and ask them to sing the alphabet or giant steps. It’s a little less a little tongue twister, you know, the head to the brain, you know, you want to use it a holding up that G and you don’t when you’re singing. But, but if it works, throughout the whole song, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, p, q, r, s, t, u, v, w x, y, z.
Bradley Vines 46:25
Okay, I know what I’m going to be doing later.
Tommy Campbell 46:29
Yeah, it’s really fun. It’s another fun thing. For you know, your musician, friends, it’s, it’s a ball. So some people get it right away. But more than half will not more than half and they’ll stumble a little bit and shot oh, I’m not gonna you know, you got to put both things together. So it’s a lot of fun. But so in Japan, they went nuts to jazz musicians. They’re, oh my gosh, I can learn my ABCs to ours and ELLs, especially, you know, on giant steps, man, that’s better in a classroom, you know? So because of things.
Bradley Vines 47:11
So you found a way to connect with with people through music? Yeah.
Tommy Campbell 47:16
Oh, man. Oh, by with that, with that, and my vocalize band. I in Japan, I had more vocal students then I did jumpsuits and I’m supposed to be a world class drummer. But man, after that, I had double the vocal students who who didn’t. They didn’t come to me for to learn. Hey, head voice chest voice and technique, vocal technique. I knew nothing about that. But improvising. I know a lot about you know, so they were coming to me, I had a lot of vocal students. So that was fun. And in Japan, in Japan, they loved live music so much. In Tokyo alone. There’s over 250 Live houses before COVID. Anyway, that musicians could go and play live music this morning in New York. More than almost any city. Yeah, just musics amazing.
Bradley Vines 48:14
That’s in Tokyo, Tokyo,
Tommy Campbell 48:17
Japanese, the Japanese government. They had over 3000 concert halls built all over the country for musicians to perform musicians, artists, dancers to perform it. The government had over 3000 of them built. You know, and I don’t mean Shaq or YMCA. I mean, like a concert hall, you know?
Bradley Vines 48:46
Yeah. It’s it’s played an outsize role in jazz history. And
Tommy Campbell 48:52
Ron Carter, he did. He did an unbelievable concert with but he did a amazing performance with a symphony orchestra. And he improvised through all you know, he you know, he played a part in and he was way off of it and solo and, and Jake, you know,
Bradley Vines 49:12
so many interesting things, how you approach teaching, you know, helping vocalist improvise in different languages, and, and so on. I’ve already kept you longer than then I said I would.
Tommy Campbell 49:29
I enjoy talking about it. You should do as much I love playing. So
Bradley Vines 49:33
but I did want to ask if there’s any thing you’re up to now that that people can get excited about and interested in any albums coming out or concert tours or any?
Tommy Campbell 49:46
Yeah, I’m doing I’m doing a lot of different albums recordings. My favorite my favorite solo album has been rereleased on Apple Music. My heart is called. They re released it Tommy Campbell my heart. And I’m very, very, very, very proud of that record. And four of my greatest friends are playing on and the chemistry is great. Five of my, my favorite people, friends playing playing a lot, you know with different people or around when I do a concert with Randy Brecker and, and Charles McPherson in Long Island at the at one of the maybe the Hampton jazz festival there. I, for some crazy reason I don’t get out to the West Coast. Like I used to drive me nuts because two of my greatest friends while one passed away, but the last time I was in Oakland was a Yoshis. And that was like,
Bradley Vines 50:58
come on out. We miss you.
Tommy Campbell 51:01
Yoshi said we did the Hollywood Bowl. Yah, yah. Yah, yah, yah, yah. Yah, I hope to get out there. Get out there. But go a lot of other places
Bradley Vines 51:13
people can find out about you on Tommy campbell.com I think is your website. And you
Tommy Campbell 51:21
Right, right, right. And my my, my gig schedule. I’m always updating it I get gigs that are far in advance gigs are their last minute, and I’m constantly keeping it updated. J campbell.com/geeks.
Bradley Vines 51:37
We’re all gonna go check out my heart. Thank you. So you’ve touched on it a bunch of things about music and health, music and improvisation and improvisation in life in the context of music, and so on. So it’s been perfect and just an absolute pleasure, Tommy, I can’t believe it. So happy to connect.
Tommy Campbell 51:59
Oh, thank you. It’s great to see you, Bradley.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
THE NEUROSCIENCE OF IMPROVISATION 