Prasant Radhakrishnan has a background in Carnatic Indian classical music and Western musical traditions, including jazz improvisation. Prasant is a protégé of the legendary Kadri Gopalnath, who revolutionized the role of the saxophone in Carnatic music. Prasant’s performances traverse the realms of traditional Carnatic concert programs while also blurring boundaries with his VidyA ensemble and other collaborations, featuring instrumentation from the jazz tradition. Moreover, he embraces music as meditation, bringing forth unique philosophical perspectives through his artistry and teaching.
The interview covers the following topics:
- Prasant’s experiences with Carnatic and jazz music
- His approach to improvisation across these musical traditions
- Experiences with his guru, Sri Kadri Gopalnath, and related insights
- Methods for learning to improvise
- Integrating meditation and music practice (including a demonstration!)
- Blending Indian and Western music traditions through composition and performance
- Breathing techniques for self-awareness
- Dreaming and improvisation
- Comparing the relationship between the Carnatic and jazz traditions and mind-altering substances and addiction
To learn more about Prasant Radhakrishnan’s music, teaching, and performance activities, see his website:
https://prasantmusic.com/
Unedited transcript by https://otter.ai:
Bradley Vines 0:00
Greetings all. Welcome to another exciting episode. Today we have the privilege of introducing an extraordinary saxophonist who seamlessly blends the worlds of jazz improvisation, and Carnatic Indian classical music. Meet Prashanth rather Krishnan, a protege of the legendary katri Gopal Nef, who revolutionized the role of the saxophone in Carnatic music. Per Sean’s performances traverse the realms of traditional Carnatic concert programs, while also blurring boundaries with his video ensemble, featuring instrumentation from the jazz tradition. Moreover, he embraces music as meditation, bringing forth unique philosophical perspectives, through his artistry and teaching. Prepare yourself for a captivating journey through the innovative sounds and insights of Prashant Radha Krishna. Welcome, Prashant. Thank you for joining us.
Prasant Radhakrishnan 1:02
Thank you, Bradley. It’s great to see you. Great to be here.
Bradley Vines 1:08
Wonderful, could you please provide us with an overview of your background and how you would describe yourself at present?
Prasant Radhakrishnan 1:18
Well, and context of what we’re talking about, I mean, there’s so many things that we could look at. And, and at the same time, I think it all really just to just living life as everyone else, as we all are. But my background, of course, as you mentioned, so, so kindly, is, is really mostly in music. And I was exposed to music really, from a young age, just like many other musicians, especially Indian music, starting with Indian budgets, like group budget singing is something that happened in where I grew up in Phoenix, Arizona, and then also Indian classical music, but grew up here in the US. So I was exposed to jazz, school band, Western music, everything all at the same time. So musically, that was kind of my background is just being steeped in all these different traditions at the same time. But I was lucky to go and studied music with my musical guru, Shri Khatri, Gopal, not in India, when I was a young teenager, and that got me much deeper into the Indian classical traditions. And, you know, the journey just kind of continued from there. And after some years ended up doing music, as a full time, life path, so to speak. And that just kind of revealed everything, as a lens, or as a way of being in general. And so, you know, I’m just lucky to have that as my way of being here, through music.
Bradley Vines 3:08
And over the course of that development, how did you find the Carnatic tradition and the jazz tradition worked together or independently to influence your approach to music, but improvisation, specifically, and how have they shaped your musical experience?
Prasant Radhakrishnan 3:34
I mean, so much, they both, as we said, it’s both independent. And together, because I was exposed to them simultaneously, pretty much growing up. So I started getting more in interested in music, as I got a little bit going through grade school and middle school. And that’s kind of when you get exposed to jazz. And I started studying with my Carnatic music teacher around that same time. So it was interesting how, how they both were brought in at the same time, I did end up studying Carnatic music a little more intensely, thanks to my teacher, you know, training me, but I was still exposed to jazz all the time. So they were both kind of going into tracks kind of in different ways. But I would always notice that whatever I learned at Carnatic music would benefit what I was doing. And on the western side of the of things, whether it’s jazz or just playing ensembles, and vice versa, the stuff I learned in the jazz tradition, especially listening to the musicians, and their sound, especially on my instrument, which happens to be the saxophone, hearing the great players in the jazz tradition, because there’s so many great ones. Whereas in Indian classical Carnatic music at the time, there’s really only my teacher was only one doing Get on the saxophone. So hearing more input of the type of sound you could get on the instrument was really helpful. And over time, they kind of started to merge together, the longer I lived with both of these traditions. First, I was interested and combining them and but I started to just hear music that combined these two. And so then I would be interested in how to combine them. But eventually it sort of that melted away as well. And then just kind of left with a common ground, which is actually quite large, there’s actually a pretty large common ground there. So that’s kind of how, where it ended up to some degree.
Bradley Vines 5:47
Amazing. And it’s a journey that continues. This is a process in progress, of course,
Prasant Radhakrishnan 5:54
pretty much yeah.
Bradley Vines 5:56
How does your experience or approach to improvisation differ? comparing your more traditional Carnatic performances and that setting? And the more boundary blending approach that you take, for example, with your video ensemble?
Prasant Radhakrishnan 6:22
That’s, that’s a great question. They’re on some level, yes. And in some level, it’s the same. So I’m one level there, I do see a difference. Where, just the, by the way, the music is applied. So in Carnatic classical music, there’s already that’s been set for us by previous generations of master artists, the way that we approach the concert structure, and where the improvisation goes, generally how that improvisation unfolds. So there’s quite a bit of freedom. But there’s also quite a bit of structure to that freedom in Carnatic music. So you kind of know, when you can be in complete freedom and other parts, you have to be watchful to be staying within that path, you know, it’s kind of like driving the car on the road, versus maybe being in a huge field where you can just drive anywhere you want, as an example, but in combining Carnatic music and jazz, for me, the context for that has always been my own original music. Cuz I started that journey of, you know, combining these traditions. Really, just like I said, before, just by seeing it, the common ground and the compensations that were arising for me. And so automatically, the context was different. Because in that context, I was able to create whatever I wanted to come out, and the context gave me more freedom, I would say. So, at the time that I was doing more of those compositions, I definitely there was an interest and you know, bringing the best and, you know, combine them in a very tasteful way and things like that. But at the same time, it was very spontaneous. So on one hand, you had the technical side of combining these two traditions. And another hand, we were able to create spaces and those compositions, were actually did feel a little bit more free to improvise, compared to some situations and kinetic music. So because you no longer have a particular thing that you have to do, but you’re actually setting up a space for something that you can do and explore. So that, you know, adhering to particular cycles in particular times, it was a little bit different in those original compositions. So that’s kind of the difference. I noticed.
Bradley Vines 8:55
Can you take us into your compositional process so so these different terrains, that you’re creating the structures in which you can launch your improvisations? And that bring together your knowledge? How do you come up with those you said, you started to hear these compositions, how do they come to you just introspecting upon the process by which they emerge?
Prasant Radhakrishnan 9:28
Well, each that’s also a wonderful question that I think a lot of composers will also probably say that it’s, it’s a mysterious process. But for me, my earliest compositions and I think this is still the case, that it it did spontaneously arise for me so I would usually actually start hearing the song almost like you’re hearing anything else, but it would be either fully formed or would be like 50%, or three quarters formed. And from there, I would take that, and then continue with it until it, it was something that we could play. So I remember the very first song that I wrote for Vidya, which is called a cent. And we played that for many years. And as always, kind of like one of our fun, fun tunes that we’d play. That song was pretty much, you know, it’s a 95%, I just heard that whole song. And then, including the bass line, and the rhythm and everything like that. So I can’t really say it was much scale on my part. I just like at least heard the song and then tried to work out any other details to bring it in to, you know, the actual physical manifestation of it. There are other times where I would have a piece of it, that would be very compelling, I would start hearing things, hearing a particular bass line or a particular groove rhythm, and then put those things together. And then as I would work with it, the rest of it out here, the rest of it. That’s, that’s like most of my compositions there. There are a few where I felt, let me try something like this. And, you know, maybe I want to do a particular group or a particular Braga, for example. So I found that the same thing. So I would start with a little tidbit. And then once I start working on it, the rest of it would show up. So yeah, so that’s mostly been my process,
Bradley Vines 11:34
and mysterious expression of the inner workings combined with craftsmanship, of course, and musicianship. So and in video, your fellow musicians, are they all as well versed in Carnatic and Western more jazz oriented music? Or is there more variety in terms of their experience, and, and expertise,
Prasant Radhakrishnan 12:09
there’s definitely more variety, which I actually think was was very cool for what we were doing at the time. We had. Like one thing that was cool. For example, Samir Gupta on the drums, was very proficient and Tabla. He was studying North Indian classical Hindustani music on a tablet. But he was also a great jazz drummer, and had a lot of really wide, wide range of influences musically. And David was against as still as they both are very active on the scene. Great jazz bass player, and also very, very open terms, just his ears and heart and everything, hearing the music and, and really responding beautifully. And David, we would work together, getting some of the subtle Indian classical gammak as the ornamentations. And he would actually play them on the bass, like a violinist so there was just that trio. And at one point, we had a violinist who is at a chromatic background as well. But even on the acoustic bass, he was able to make both the role of a bass player and a jazz trio and at the same time, a chromatic violin as to shadows and shadows, the artists like in Carnatic music concert. So that was a really interesting instrumentation interaction. They’re
Bradley Vines 13:40
wonderful, amazing at what is the significance of the name for this group? Video, How did you choose that that name,
Prasant Radhakrishnan 13:51
videos generally is just you could say it’s a it’s a path of knowledge or its path of inner knowledge. Some you may call it like a divine knowingness, divine knowledge. And we came across the name just I think my sister actually, we were brainstorming and also band we were all brainstorming different names. And this is one of the names I think my my sister actually submit that suggested it, but I don’t remember how to present and it just kind of felt right. And so we we use that name, and it just kind of stuck with it. So this video so far, recently haven’t been performing as much because we’re all in different places. But, you know, we might get might get it going again, hopefully, if we can make it happen.
Bradley Vines 14:44
Splendid, would it be possible to share some standout experiences where improvisation took flight or you had you had some kind of interesting experiences? Can you share Are that memory that has made an impression on you.
Prasant Radhakrishnan 15:06
For me, it’s improvisation kind of almost like you’re saying, like a peak experience, while improvising, a lot of jazz musicians have talked about that. For, for me, it was, I didn’t have one in particular, it was really just an overall build up over time of continuously having that experience. So for me, improvisation, at least in the aeronautics side, which is what you know, it’s taught from my teacher that came really naturally to me for some reason, what they call it, the sweater Kalpana. And I got that, and I think that’s, that’s thanks to Kathy dieser, because I learned with him sort of a mixture of the older apprentice style, and the more modern sort of taking lessons because I didn’t live with him for 12 years, like they used to do in the old days, but I did stay with him during summer, and winter breaks. And so because of that, I got to travel with him and just be on the concert stage with him. So all the concerts, I would just be sitting there. And then eventually, it was also kind of playing along as it as a just a support. And so I think I was able to pick up on just the feeling of what it feels like to improvise in the moment. And so I always did feel very, a lot of enjoyment and freedom and just peaceful exploration. During improvisation, I had never really felt that pressure. I work with a lot, you know, music students, and some of the things they they ask about are like, oh, like, you know, like, I’m not sure what to play or something like, I don’t know what to play next, or I keep playing the same thing. And there are solutions to those. But those are things I only thought of after teaching. But as as far as planning is concerned, I did feel like once you enter that space, it is like you said, it’s like take, it’s kind of like taking flight, where the conscious thinking mind sort of disappears. And you’re going, you know, just in a natural state of flow or state of being. And you’re just witnessing an unfolding of of how the music is coming out. And it’s always kind of a surprise. And you know, sometimes it doesn’t go the way a concert might expect it to go if it doesn’t land perfectly or something. But most of the time, it goes pretty well. And it’s it’s always a surprise to see how that unfolds. So for me, it’s really been, there are just, I think too many experiences of those. It’s kind of just build up over time and an overall appreciation for how something like improvisation can give us back our own natural feeling of spontaneity, and just being ourselves. I think that’s that appreciation sort of stayed with me over time.
Bradley Vines 18:13
Beautiful, that is kind of idyllic perspective on approaching improvisation is something that builds naturally and what more can you ask then for the demonstration of what it is to to play to create did st Khatri go will not ever share anything specific about improvisation that you recall? Did he ever give you a you know, some kind of insight that that stuck with you?
Prasant Radhakrishnan 18:48
The funny thing is, that’s a great question. He didn’t really say too much. So I think I have to thank him for that. That proximity of being listening and playing with him. I do remember the first lesson. Like when we were together, and he was just teaching me normal, some compositions. And then he just said, once he tries photocopied, I just start playing. So Hamsa 20 Is that raga, which is, you know, it’s kind of a derivative of, like a pentatonic within the major scale. It’s a very, it’s a pretty easy to get on saxophone. So he said, play helps with any, you know, so I was I just started playing something. I’m like, I didn’t know what he wanted me to play. He’s like, just play, play play. So and then I just started playing some stuff. And then I remember feeling like, I don’t know what I’m doing. This doesn’t sound that good. And he was like, Yeah, that’s right. Keep going, you know. So he just wanted me to get into it. You know, just it didn’t matter what really I was playing. He just wanted me to get into that jump in and to just playing and not worrying too much about it. So I think his teaching approach at When it came to improvisation was was really good. And I think that’s, that’s probably how I teach too, because of him that it’s, it’s not a restrictive approach, I studied with other people that he, when he was, for example, out of town or something he would say go and study with, you know, for example, trs or and some other musicians and I had some mentors, who, who I would just meet. And I noticed that some of the other teachers were more restrictive in the process, they would say, like, okay, play this, and then play this, and then learn this, and then, you know, build on that. And I was, and that works, too. And that’s very useful, too. But I had come from the complete other side of it, which was just to start playing, and just just see what happens. And I feel like that’s, they’re both important, but I think that just start playing naturally and see what comes out and then sculpt it is I think, what gives people that feeling of freedom, and being able to enjoy improvising, and be able to enjoy playing from the get go, rather than having to create the mold and then break it. You know, it’s feel like it’s easier to just improvise. And then you can sculpt it as you need to as you listen more and more and get more comfortable.
Bradley Vines 21:22
Fantastic advice for improvisers, people learning to improvise or deepening their practice of improvisation taking what’s happening naturally. And then molding or exploring that expanding? Altering? Yeah. That’s, that’s lovely. It could you delve into the connection between meditation and improvisation music more generally, how do they intertwine in your approach, as an artist and as a person?
Prasant Radhakrishnan 21:58
Oh, for sure. Yeah, they very much intertwined. It’s the way I feel it is that, you know, meditation is really just another word for describing our own nature, which is, you know, just the feeling of being or the feeling of pure awareness. So, when we, so a lot of times, describe meditation as an activity of focusing on an object or focusing on a practice, but, but really, another way of looking at is that meditation is when you, you sort of withdraw from all the practices, and then you just rest in your own feeling of being, which is what’s natural to everyone. That’s the, that’s the one thing that’s the most natural to all of us. So when we see meditation as more of the foundation of what we are, before everything else arises, then we can, it’s really more of a resting. And, and then the spontaneous, spontaneity is kind of a natural byproduct. Because, you know, and that feeling of just being then things just happen naturally. So in that way, the improvisation is the most natural thing there could be in that is spontaneous, and also that it arises on his own. So as I was saying earlier, the other jazz musicians, many, many people have talked about, oh, I’ve had a moment where I was just like, everything was just happening. I wish I could get back to that moment when they were playing their solo and everything was just happening. But and that’s actually how it really is. So when the when the thinking mind isn’t there, then we get to enjoy that. So that’s the way that I look at it is that the meditation is the foundation. And the the improvisation is a natural, like kind of a wave arising out of the ocean of that. But I do understand that not everyone sees it that way, in the beginning, and I didn’t always see it that way. It’s more of over time you discover it to be that way. And the improvisation approach can merge very well with a meditation practice. And so if you’re meditating, for example, to continuously let go of the thinking mind, for example, it’s a common approach and resting and a feeling of awareness. You can do the same thing when you’re improvising. And then also because improvising is an activity, a lot of people are much more comfortable with some kind of an activity rather than just just being. So through the activity, you can also discover that you’re just being or you’re simply aware or witnessing while you’re improvising. And then that again, benefits the meditation and then throughout the day, it becomes a natural feeling of just experiencing arising of experience.
Bradley Vines 24:59
Would you you be so kind as to demonstrate this process of revealing the natural state of the mind through the practice of creating music and improvisation.
Prasant Radhakrishnan 25:17
Yeah, there’s so many connections there. So it’s kind of like, on the very ground basis is sort of the most easy example is really the ocean being, you know, the vast ocean, and all the experiences arising kind of like waves out of the ocean, and then again, dissolving. And during the entire process there, there, that very ocean. So similar is it, the feeling of our beingness being like the ocean, and then all of the experiences arising like waves. But wherever we are, in terms of how we’re seeing that, you can make the connection back to the source of that. And music is a really great way for doing that largely because it doesn’t necessarily have to engage the thinking mind. And that’s why people who don’t practice music, maybe, but they like music. That’s why they enjoy it. Because when they listen to that, they’re not engaging the thinking mind at all, they’re completely going to the feeling, just a pure feeling, a feeling, just going into feeling. And then from the feeling, resting and being. So I can share a little bit of an approach that I’ve been talking about for a while. That makes it really simple. Do you want me to do that? Oh, please do that. So I have my saxophone here.
Bradley Vines 26:37
And be amazing. Yes, thank you.
Prasant Radhakrishnan 26:39
Yeah. So this is just a very simple meditation that anyone can do. So again, like I said earlier, just start our natural feeling of being is, is all you need. So even if you don’t do music, or improvisation, you can still, you know, be in meditation all the time, just by simply being ourselves. But through the sound of music, you can help to dissolve the thinking mind, which is probably the most important step, right? Because during improvisation, for example, those who want to be improvisers and are having trouble, that’s usually the main barrier, right? So you’re trying to think about what to play. But the music happens a lot faster than the thinking mind can operate. I know with young students, for example, I have I have more young students these days as well, when they go to do their first recital, or like a first program, even if it’s just one song, they’re very surprised when they get up there and they forget everything they practiced or the stuff they practice really well. Suddenly, they’re like, I just blanked out or something. And, and that’s because I think spontaneously in performance, your mind actually goes into a deeper state, you know, you go into something that’s more like meditation, actually. And it has both a relaxing and it has also a heightening of awareness where you’re more vivid. So if you’re not used to that, it, it kind of opens things up. And then you’re like, wait, what’s happening. So, so you can access that through music, without having to really do too much, or try too hard. So that the approach that I like to share is something just very, very simple, just by noticing the nature of sound. And basically, once we recognize what sound is, and, and experience, it also noticed that its nature. And then by us experiencing that nature, we recognize our own nature. And it’s something that you can have experientially rather than technically, sort of theoretically. So I usually offer a like three steps to it, which is very simple. And the first one is to just enjoy the sound, which is something all of us know how to do spontaneously, right. So anytime you hear a song or something that you like, automatically, you’re going to enjoy that sound. So that’s the first level of meeting a sensory object is you actually taste it, like food, you know, tasting it, you taste and you enjoy the experience of that as a sensory object. So in the first pass, and anyone can practice this, whether they’re doing music practice, or as a listener, the listener can also practice it. But it’s especially powerful for a musician because you’re producing the sound yourself. Which, which kind of is like a feedback loop into your own being. It makes it a little bit more interesting. But as a listener, you can do it just as well. So I’ll play a sound. In the first you’re gonna we’re just going to enjoy and I’m also going to just enjoy the sound, no expectation as to how it needs to be good or bad or anything.
Okay, so that’s just simply the first natural step. And you could kind of notice how it feels. But your awareness, the feeling of you being aware, is reaching out and touching and tasting, sensory object that’s appearing in your awareness. And you’re uniting with that you’re kind of tasting it. So to separate at the moment coming together and enjoying. So that’s the first step. Second pass we’re going to take is where you recognize the sound, to completely take over your entire experience, which is actually somewhat the case because if you hear a sound, it doesn’t have a particular location. But it actually fills up your whole field of experience. So if you see your experiential, just your experience as a field of awareness, you know, like from whatever you’re experiencing, and everything that you experience is something like a field, you could say. And when a sound enters the field, it fills up the whole field. So you can just observe and see if that’s the case for you. So in the second one, we’re going to let the sound actually fill the whole field of awareness and just notice that it’s completely taking over everything. So there’s only sound basically so and this we kind of merge with it.
Okay, and so this, this second part, you can normally spend more time on that, but you kind of will start to notice you’re shifting into a more relaxed, might be more relaxed, a little bit more open. And this is something you could do on your own, of course. And the third and the final part is to actually, now after the sound is being has filled up the entire field of awareness, so there’s nothing left but the sound. Now there’s, there isn’t the feeling of separation between you and the object now. So either you’ve dissolved or the sound is dissolved, but usually that you feel the separate feeling of me, which is often arising as the thinking mind gets dissolved in the sound, you know, so you can almost imagine like how sound might dissolve other smaller vibrations. Similarly, like the sound fills you up, and there’s nothing left, but it sounds like kind of like ice melting and water. If the water was the sound, and then the last step, you’re going to recognize that something is witnessing that that’s already been dissolved in everything. And so that witness or that, that awareness is that aspect of us that is usually neglected. In the background of the thinking mind. It’s kind of just silently watching everything but we don’t, we don’t watch it. And so we forget that it’s there. And that’s what usually shows up in those moments of clarity and improvisation. Because you’re actually aware that all of this is spontaneously arising. And that’s the awareness what I like to call pure awareness. So the same technique, we feel the sound filling up and then notice whenever you feel you know, very comfortable filled up with a sound simply noticing that something’s aware of this and that usually spontaneously comes forward by itself.
So that’s a general overview of a technique that that, you know people can try.
Bradley Vines 37:22
Wonderful, I love how you make it so accessible. Anyone can sit down and play a note, you have the freedom to step outside and experience but that can all be developed from the most basic experience of sound. It’s just wonderful and inspiring to start from a tone a sound.
Prasant Radhakrishnan 37:43
Yeah, yeah. And that’s, that’s actually the since that’s the most fundamental, I think. And it’s also for musicians. On one hand, you have anyone in the in the world who can hear, and even people who can’t hear externally can hear internally usually sounds, so anyone can practice it. For getting back to their own nature and getting into more meditative feeling, getting to feeling of being and freedom and peace and all that. On the same hand. Musicians can also do that getting to because they musicians have different set of difficulties and challenges, right? Navigating being a practitioner, or professional musician. So getting that peace and enjoyment back of music that you had when you were a kid when he first started. Before all the pressures of performing a certain way in music, getting back to that enjoyment, just the pure enjoyment, just like when you taste your mom’s cooking, after being away from home for years, and you go home, and mom makes your favorite food, and you taste it. And that’s that familiar taste. And the feeling of home is I think what a lot of musicians, that’s one of the feelings that makes people play music for so long. And it’s just that feeling of being yourself through this experience, you know. And so I think that something as simple as just playing a note is so natural to us. And it’s also safe. You know, there’s no, there’s nothing to do with it. Really, you don’t have to even play it and tune in perfectly. And, you know, it’s it’s just being yourself and the sound of the note of whatever the instrument that you love, you know, how do
Bradley Vines 39:41
you situate yourself in kind of broader traditions that you you’ve studied from?
Prasant Radhakrishnan 39:46
Yeah, I mean, it’s, well how, first of all for the breadth and the sound, I think they are very closely interrelated related. In Indian traditions, I don’t know particularly, but in Carnatic compositions, many of the great St. Composers have talked about sound as a means to realization. Especially at the Agatha. With this one, we think she’s there. One of my favorite Krithi is not the other day is talking about not that celebration and enjoyment of sound as the way to Brahman, or the expansive ocean of being. And sound is the most direct way. And that good idea was a buck, that’s somebody who worship drama and stuff. And yet he still talked about this. So the sound it of itself transcends even the breath. However, the breath is, you know, we all have bodies. So the breath is also being a wind instrument player, the breath is so core, to even making the sound. So, by taking a breath, we were able to actually still the mind is very simple, because even in the ancient teachings, and also more modern teachers like Sri, Bhagwan Ramana, Maharshi talked about control the breath and you control the mind. So when you restrain the breath to some degree, automatically, the thinking mind sort of rides on the breath. So the thinking mind will slow down into go into the rhythm of the breathing, and it can also dissolve completely, just through breath. But if you combined breath and sound, it’s even more powerful. So by singing songs, playing songs. That’s why people feel so good. When they play. It’s not you’re, you’re harmonizing the breath, the intention, and the sound all together. But the last thing, ingredient that a lot of people miss is just simply awareness. And so what we were talking about earlier, if you begin to incorporate just a natural meditative awareness, with all of the other things you’re already doing, then it’s like the final ingredient is there from the beginning. And so that whole process can be enjoyed, you know, the entire way through, and you get more and more enjoyment of it. While not having any of that confusion that arises from the individual thinking mind trying to do something specific.
Bradley Vines 42:34
It’s amazing how much this aligns with what we’re learning from the neurophysiology of musical experience. That which was known by Tiago Raja, and Dikshitar and others is, is coming to light under these new techniques for looking into the brain.
Prasant Radhakrishnan 42:55
That’s amazing data science is catching up so much to that. It’s great because we have it from all angles like so, you know, we had the sages and teachers telling us these techniques and also discovering it. So like the technique that I shared earlier, there was something that came spontaneous spontaneously, for me, I didn’t actually study that particular rotation or anything, that was something that was kind of revealed with it. And then, but there’s so many other things that that have been there. And then seeing how you’re talking about the science confirming it. It’s so helpful for people, everyone to really discover because you can now present a complete full, whole picture, like, these are some techniques, these are some concepts, but then here is the science, because people really want to know that, too. Like, is this really like, why should I do that? You know, so being able to show that entire picture, I think it’s going to be very, very helpful to people.
Bradley Vines 43:58
That was amazing. Thank you for sharing that system with us and for well, treating us to a dip in the, in the practice that you’ve developed. You’ve been sharing this practice, people can discover this through your website and follow you and you do the soft songs semi regularly, I believe.
Prasant Radhakrishnan 44:23
Yes, yes. I recently I’ve been a bit busier. But during the COVID time, they were very quite regular. But they’ll start pretty soon. More regularly. But yeah, people can just contact me online or they want to attend.
Bradley Vines 44:43
Does dreaming play into how you approach composition or the development of your practice of music? Has it ever led to an insight that opened the door to something for you or is it Do you have a dream practice that you could share with us as well.
Prasant Radhakrishnan 45:04
So many things can happen in dreams. I know that Tibetan tradition, that dream practice is a very big, played a big role. Dream Yoga, but from the teachings that I was exposed to, which is primarily, you know, that wishes, the the three states of waking deep sleep and dream are coming and going and our true nature, the self, and that they’re, they’re only passing. So in the practice of, or just, you know, rediscovering what we are just being what we are, we want to focus on the actual awareness of being, and not overemphasis on the waking state dream state or the deep sleep state in terms of wanting to realize itself, you know, but definitely, all of those states have experience. Although the deep sleep, there isn’t much, so much experience is just like a peaceful sleep. But in the dream state, I wouldn’t say that I worked consciously with it, or, you know, work through the dream state as it relates to improvisation. But I do see how they can be related, which is that a dream state usually it’s more of the deeper aspects of our mind, that’s not conscious to us. And the waking state is usually expressed in the dream state, in some way, shape, or form an improvisation you also, when you really go into true improvisation, which is not mechanical, playing what you’ve practiced, but you’re actually truly spontaneous, that means you’re completely like you’ve died that moment. To me, that’s, that’s true, the true improvisation, where, like, the next moment, you have no idea what’s coming, you really don’t know what’s coming, you could play something completely wrong. And you don’t know. So when you’re in that total, let go, you definitely access those deeper parts of your awareness that are normally hidden, that that might manifest in the dream state. So I can see how people who practice improvisation with that kind of abandon that kind of letting go, that kind of freedom will experience some correlation. And in the dream state, and even in the waking state, they might experience a change in the way they’re experiencing things. So I could I could see how those two would be correlated. Yeah, yeah,
Bradley Vines 47:39
to let go to the point where you don’t know what’s coming next is. That’s a daring space for improvisers to trod upon.
Prasant Radhakrishnan 47:49
That is that is, and I think it helps to, if someone does, for example, someone who’s listening to this and wants to experience that, I think one nice thing about certain raagas and something like Carnatic music, or you want to actually simplify things a little bit, so that you feel a little bit safer to play. So you know, if you have an algo, which doesn’t have too much cultural context, or if you’re playing in a jazz tradition, and you you put down a chord, like one or two simple chords, and instead of it being more of a skill base to like, you know, every, every two chords, every chord is changing every two beats, and you have to, like skate on top of it. But actually create something a little simpler. And then you can give yourself the chance to actually go there. It’s much easier than to be there because you’re not worried then, like, you know, it’s I’m gonna play something wrong, because it’s much less likely when you only have to play five notes.
Bradley Vines 48:59
Nice. Nice. I did have one more question, which was the history of the jazz tradition is entangled with mind altering drugs and addiction. There are clearly societal and contextual drivers that resulted in that. But there may be also some relationships between the attraction of improvisation which has this ever, unknowing, almost gambling like quality, where you in some ways can be addicted in a sense, the brain being very sensitive to randomized reward. And just so you get that in improvisation, you just never know what it’s going to be that it’s pleasurable or when it’s going to happen. Yes, there might be some connection then genetically people are more or less prone to addiction. Shame. There’s variance there. Yeah. So that may also be playing into why drugs and addiction have played seemingly an oversized role and the jazz tradition? Yeah, of course, there can be interactions. And this is speculation, but but is there anything like that in the world of Carnatic musics, you’ve had a chance to kind of see what goes on there. Are there relationships there that mirror what we see in the jazz tradition?
Prasant Radhakrishnan 50:36
It’s hard to say I, in the Carnatic music side of things, I think the only thing they take is a good filter coffee. As far as I know, I don’t know going way back what may have happened, but Carnatic music has been relatively traditional. Rather, you know, I don’t know if I want to say Orthodox, but it’s a quite a traditional music, which came out of sort of a spiritual tradition. So it’s come out of you can say, both spiritual and religious. So you want to, you could go to either extreme, the spiritual is kind of aspect of it is, you know, like Tiger alluded to the sound and things like that, which is more all encompassing, and anyone can experience. But yeah, generally, I don’t think they would take much else that I’m aware of other than coffee that maybe choose some pawn, or take the sometimes that have the snuff was popular back in those days to tobacco snuff, which they would, you know, put in the, I think it’s a product of the times, for example, today, I don’t see anyone doing that. So it’s, it’s, I think, it’s just something that helps them get into that a little bit more aware, a little bit more awake. When you’re, when you’re playing music, like, Oh, if I just take something I can, I can play anything. And it’s like, basically, it’s something to bring down the thinking mind, and bring up the, the inner, the deeper part that’s covered up, because that’s where a lot of the power comes from. So anything, which helps somebody to subdue that thinking mind, they’ll take it, you know, and once when we recognize that actually, the thinking mind is only playing on the surface of our experience, and the basis of our experiences, actually, what everyone’s wanting, and start to look at the basis of it, which is just the awareness that maybe this in the future generations, it’ll shift to, you know, just recognizing the Beingness. And then the reward of like you saying, the randomized reward of improvisation is like, it’s there all the time. Like, all day long, you get to when you’re resting and feeling of being then everything that’s arising is like a randomized reward. You don’t know what’s coming next. And that itself gives you It’s like a dream, you know, kind of like experiencing a very interesting dream, and you don’t know what’s gonna rise next. And you’re just watching it like a movie, but enjoying every aspect of it. But you But there isn’t the worry about it, because you know, it’s all going to be fine.
Bradley Vines 53:28
As seems to me Another commonality, at least in the experience of dreams and improvisation that comes up sometimes, which is it not being of one’s control, so that the dream narrative is happening to us. And yeah, improvisers will report having the music kind of happened through them or to them or it’s, yeah, seems to be beyond the conscious
Prasant Radhakrishnan 53:57
effort. Definitely, definitely happening through editing all musicians at some point can attest that understanding that the music happens through the individual rather than like by the individual, as a, as an individual entity, just similar to you know, the ocean current coming via the entire ocean, versus one single wave generating its own current, that wouldn’t make any sense. So it’s, it’s definitely kind of like that. And that’s also by ensemble playing and when you get a few people together, and they go really deep into the music together, you can feel that inner wave of everyone in that group coming out as one and I think definitely, all of us do want that experience to not have the feeling of being individual because it’s very claustrophobic individual mind with a single body
Bradley Vines 54:53
wonderful thought to leave us on and that you’ve been so generous with your with your time, Prashant. Thank you. So much. And do you want to? Is there? Can you please tell us about any ongoing projects or your website, people can reach out to you to join your meditations going forward? Is there any other project or goals that you’re working on, or hope to pursue that you you could share?
Prasant Radhakrishnan 55:22
Well, right now there’s a, there are a few things that kind of may arise here, definitely what we talked about today, and thank you for kind of making that bringing that space to, to share about the music meditation. So that’s something that I’ll continue to share whenever the opportunity arises. So I think I would like to share this with more people that would benefit so you know, perhaps, music schools, or, you know, teachers, organizations that want to give this opportunity to the students just so that they can have a much happier time practicing. At the very least, if anyone practicing and music starts to just do this with their long term practice, they’ll have such a much more peaceful, you know, journey with less of the difficulties that come with, with the journey, and just the general public. So sharing that that’s probably one of the things I’ll be doing. So you know, publishing videos on YouTube, and on occasion, by the topic as well, so people can find me there. I’m also playing currently with my friend of probably 25 plus years, Rohan Krishna Murthy, who’s number then known player, he’s got a group called the Elia project. And so we’re performing pretty regularly in the Bay Area. We think we’re playing SF jazz next month. So people come out to that show. And I’m starting to perform some Carnatic concerts as well. So and look out for maybe somebody compositions and things like that for me. But that’s basically it. But I’ll be around sharing these things. Anybody like to?
Bradley Vines 57:13
Yeah, amazing. And you’re on Bandcamp. And your website has a lot of great resources. Prashanth music.com, as your website,
Prasant Radhakrishnan 57:23
right. Yeah. Thank you, Bradley. It’s great to see you.
Bradley Vines 57:26
Yeah, the pleasure is absolutely mine, I should mention that you are my teacher of Carnatic saxophone. And I’ve just absolutely benefited so much from learning many things from you in that space. Thank you for my
Prasant Radhakrishnan 57:44
privilege. But you play amazingly, I remember when we first starting out, we were doing Alto, and then you’re telling me after you came back later, you’re like, Oh, I’ve always been playing Barry. And then he started playing Carnatic music on the barre. So I was been telling people check out Bradley because nobody else that I’m aware of is doing Carnatic music on Barry’s saxophone. So we talk about the sound and the power of the sound and stuff like that. Within that power, the sound. There’s different textures and feelings by the different frequencies, having an unbury hearing some of the Thiagarajan credit these are the features they’re good at these are even the improvisations on the barre as always, I’ve always enjoyed that. We were doing it so yeah.
Bradley Vines 58:29
Nice. Well, thank you for that encouragement. Definitely. I do appreciate it and looking forward to carrying on the conversation. This it’s been a real pleasure. Thank you so much, Prashant. It’s such a such a great experience talking with you
Prasant Radhakrishnan 58:50
need to be wonderful if you readily
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
THE NEUROSCIENCE OF IMPROVISATION 