This is an interview with the incomparable Kenny Werner. He is an improvising pianist and author whose impact on the philosophy and practice of improvisation has been extraordinary. In the realm of music, Kenny Werner’s improvisations weave melodies and harmonies that are rooted in but not limited to the jazz tradition. His groundbreaking work as the architect of “Effortless Mastery,” a transformative methodology for nurturing musical talent, has facilitated the growth of countless aspiring artists worldwide. What sets Kenny Werner apart is not only his technical fluency as a performing artist, but his understanding of the deeper connections between music, self-discovery, and indeed life itself. Immersed in the teachings of Indian philosophy and their echoes in Western thought, Kenny brings a unique perspective that extends well beyond just music practice. This discussion delves into the very heart of Effortless Mastery as Kenny opens the door to a world of possibilities through guided exercises, allowing you to experience the essence of his approach firsthand. Throughout the discussion, Kenny plays the piano to demonstrate, and you might even witness the creation of a new composition! Whether you’re a seasoned musician, an aspiring artist, or simply someone with an ear for beauty, this interview with Kenny Werner promises to be an unforgettable exploration of the philosophy, music, and wisdom that shape his remarkable journey.
The musical interlude towards the beginning of the program features music composed and performed by Bradley Vines on alto and baritone saxophones. The first quote is by Sister Wendy taken from her program The Story of Painting (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBv0HezlOBw). The second quote is from an interview with Swami Sarvapriyananda on the Waking Up app with Sam Harris (https://dynamic.wakingup.com/course/COFFD9B?code=SCE8C67C8&share_id=D9D1B484&source=content%20share).
There are three segments of Kenny Werner’s recorded music included. The first is taken from the song Little Blue Man on the album Beat Degeneration (https://music.apple.com/us/album/little-blue-man/80818980?i=80818904, with Johannes Weidenmueller, Ari Hoenig, and Kenny Werner). The second is from the title track of his album Animal Crackers (https://music.apple.com/us/album/animal-crackers-feat-kenny-werner-johannes-weidenmueller/1305816021?i=1305816267). The third is from the title track of his album The Space (https://music.apple.com/us/album/the-space/1441314552?i=1441314553).
Unedited transcript from Otter.ai:
Bradley Vines 0:00
Greetings all and welcome to the neuroscience of improvisation. Get ready to embark on a journey into the world of improvisation with a master of the art form. Today we are honored to host the incomparable Kenny Werner and improvising pianist and author who has impact on the philosophy and practice of improvisation has been nothing less than extraordinary. In the realm of music, Kenny Warner’s improvisations weave melodies and harmonies that are rooted in but not limited to the jazz tradition. Kenny’s groundbreaking work as the architect of effortless mastery, a transformative methodology for nurturing musical talent has facilitated the growth of countless aspiring artists worldwide. What sets Kenny Werner apart is not just his technical fluency as a performing artist, but his understanding of the deeper connections between music, self discovery, and indeed life itself. Immersed in the teachings of Indian philosophy and their echoes in Western thought, Kenny brings a unique perspective that extends well beyond just music practice. This episode delves into the very heart of effortless mastery, as Kenny opens the door to a world of possibilities through guided exercises, allowing you to experience the essence of his approach firsthand. Throughout the discussion, Kenny plays the piano to demonstrate, and you might even witness the creation of a new composition. So whether you are a seasoned musician and aspiring artist, or simply someone with an ear for beauty, this interview with Kenny Werner promises to be an unforgettable exploration of the philosophy, music and wisdom that shape his remarkable journey. Let’s begin.
Sister Wendy 2:13
Science Advances one step leads to another autism is about being human.
Swami Sarvapriyananda 2:36
The people who are pioneers in these systems, the Buddha or you know Adi Shankar are going to be the Christians, they would be very interested in development.
Bradley Vines 2:45
This is great, what a pleasure. Thanks for joining us here. My goodness, we’ve got Kenny Werner in the house. This is This is amazing. Much appreciated. And you are, of course, tremendously well known for your effortless mastery methodology first came out in the 90s, I believe, and of course, yes, you in I think 2021 or so you came out with becoming becoming the instrument? Yes. A wonderful addition,
Kenny Werner 3:23
one would think one would actually think I’m an author.
Bradley Vines 3:27
Yes, one would given the communication style and fluency and also, the fact of having two books. Now, beyond that you, you, you have, of course, your effortless mastery Institute at Berklee College of Music, where you’re taking these ideas forward. And now an online course that you’re actually currently running.
Kenny Werner 3:52
Well, we’ve done that for a couple years. But this first time I’ve done a course for the second time. It’s the I have two courses. At Berkeley. One is effortless mastery. One was effortless mastery. Two, the four steps in effortless mastery are the answer to the whole book. So people enjoy the first part of the book, when they say, How did he know I do that, you know, that’s their neurology, right. However, the four steps are reprogramming steps. And when Roger Brown gave me the platform to teach them as semesters. That’s quite a challenge. So the first two steps are the first semester because you don’t change that neurology. And that’s why I’m excited that we’re talking because I have a few questions for you as well. It’s time to translate this completely in terms of neuroscience, because it completely translates. So the first course is just the first two steps. Go if you don’t establish a baseline of neurology, that precept As a music is not nearly as important, as the previous neurology posits, because if understanding music’s importance made you play better, then we would take courses in enhancing its importance in our minds. But most people would say the opposite, the more important music is, the less important I seem. So the neurology just like, if you like Italian food, you smell meatballs cooking, the neurology is let’s get at it. If I say let’s play, the neurology might be, oh, now what? This trepidation over something that should be at least as enjoyable as meatballs. And that’s why it’s older allergy. So anyway, the course we’re doing online, now, we only did the first one. So if somebody wants to still sign up, they can. Because as a roll record, it is just focusing on first two steps, which is a neurological reboot. It is take the analogy, like it’s changing the polarity. Or it’s changing the apps I like to think of as changing the software, I mean, changing the operating system. Because if you have an operating system that values music over yourself, then the apps of liberation can never run on an operating system. So I like all three analogies. It’s an app, yeah, but let’s say you have a new app, the first two steps of effortless mastery have liberated you when you can’t do it, because the operating system devalues you in the face of music. So those apps don’t run on that. However, if we take and it’s worth taking that much time, at Berkeley, we take a semester. Now people can do it the me online because not everybody is going to move to Boston and spend this god awful mount of money. Just saying get to my course it just doesn’t make any sense. So now we do it directly. And expensive though it may be it’s so much less than going to Berkeley. So but here’s the thing, we reprogram the mind to distract yourself from the importance so that the body can experience the instrument. So effortless mastery has grown because it used to be accidentally someone asked me to give them a lesson. I said right there, you just got in your own way, right? There’s a 9080 something. Someone said, right there you care, then yoga. Yeah, right there. How’d you know? I said, Well, I don’t know. I hadn’t didn’t really think about it. But besides you look different when you care. You also played worse at the moment you cared. So then I made up these exercises. How do you not care. And I would start to use stuff I was learning about in the 80s. You know, the whole holistic thing kind of unfolded in the 80s. The 60s was the discovery of love. But since it was drug fueled, it had to be temporary. replaced by the 70s, which was just going after the high. Whatever the point was originally that was lost in the 60s, that and a few assassinations that, you know, disillusion you from what country you thought you were living in, right? Plus drugs. It was a statement. I’m going to redefine love. I’m not going to love neurologically the way my parents did. Because there was an awful lot of shallowness in that. I’m going to rediscover it I’m going to take this pill was the right idea. And the research on that pills, which I’m sure you’re well aware of, was cut off when Timothy Leary made it into a protest a countercultural thing. That was enough to shut it down and make it
Bradley Vines 9:05
exactly schedule one. Yes, schedule,
Kenny Werner 9:08
right. All that research was over, as you know, probably it’s starting to pick up again in the 90s. And it’s pretty much in full force. Now. The part that validates effortless mastery is whether with a question to me, I knew that psychedelics could change your neurology instantly. I just assumed that the change would change back within a day or two, because it always did. Now that movie, how to change your mind and the book actually, which I’m sure you’re aware of the people’s stories, they talk about losing anxiety for good. They talked about not being depressed ever again. They talk about you know, so I want to know what’s going on with the psychedelics that my last turn with it was in the 70s and the problem with it, it was complete but it was temporary where Right. However, what he points out is neurological pathways. And I learned that actually, a long time ago, I took a course, me and Mark Johnson, this great bass player, but it was this guy, Robert Fripp or something like that. And he wrote a book called the path of least resistance. And it did. Now, the idea that of neurological pathways, which I never forgot. But the more I taught effortless mastery, the more it took it away from the romantic like music, it took it away from the spiritual like, it took it away from the philosophical which is just like pablum to the neurological. Because today, if you’re having a revelation, we don’t know if there’s a God fueling it. But we do know that you couldn’t see it if you measure the if you put some gizmos on the brain. So the only thing we’re sure of is that this existence is extremely covered, colored by various neurological pathways. And effortless mastery is aligning itself with that more and more, I’m not doing anything, it everless Master, if you don’t try to create a path, then you follow it. And that’s how this whole thing has grown. Which is why I was interested to meet with you because I need to get with neuroscience now. Or a neuroscientist that understands everything except the last thing they understand, which is the experience. They understand the technology. They may even be a bridge for others. But they’re not themselves having that experience. And effortless mastery is that piece of the puzzle. And I think they might fit very nicely together more information for me to validate what I know, transferring, you need to know that it’s far less difficult to do than anyone imagines. So now I have a question for you before we start, when I tried to describe to musicians, the neurology has to be changed. Because look, if I say where’s my metronome, trust your metronome. vise, this is the fourth step and effortless mastery. The first step first few steps is what everybody’s interested in. How do I change my self judgment, which then, of course, takes us out of the bay of music into the ocean of life, if we can only change the neurological predisposition to self judge, right. But once you have achieved that, that’s what the first two steps do. It takes a lot of losing it and finding it losing but the programming is based on repetition. Without repetition, there is no programming. And so the fourth step, now that you’re not confused anymore, that you have nothing to do with this music. And you’ve been practicing the first two steps long enough, so that even though you’re not always there, you can get there, it’s more like a fork in the road. Now I can go down the old path of thinking this matters. Or you take the right fork and watch myself breathe. And I will demonstrate to you step zero while we’re together. But have you done that already to train the machine, the instrument that plays the instrument, you can never train the instrument because you had too much neurology attaching meaning that was illusionary or as they say in Sanskrit, Maya, the illusion ego, we could go to the scriptures for we could go to the psychological studies, when you go to neuroscience, it’s time to use it. Okay, so let’s say you’ve gotten out the illusion that what you’re doing is important. And boy, once it’s not, you find out something you can never find out otherwise, every note works and relativity to every other note. The theory of relativity is just a term I only came up with two days ago, because this shit is still writing itself through me. Very well relativity exist. If I play this note, there’s no choice that wouldn’t be inspired. Next, not when the mindset is been fixed. And that’s steps one and two. But assuming they’ve been fixed, you can talk about liberation all the time. If there’s no exercise, there’s no change. If there’s no repetition of the exercise, there’s no change. It doesn’t matter It doesn’t come at all if your exercises are fuzzy on a philosophical or spiritual level. And it doesn’t come if you have exactly the right exercise. But ego keeps you from repeating it. Without repetition, there’s no reprogramming until they get to know the technology, right? Look, let’s say you find a color in the brain. That’s doubt. Now, that’s why psychotherapy has changed. It’s much more about triggers. Right? We have a lot of examples where you and I offline, can look at all the things that cross check this. But when they get to technology, right, you got your mouse in your hand. Oh, look, it’s a dark purple with brown. That’s doubt. Okay, do me a favor, grab that now press Delete. I think someday they’re going to do it. And an awful lot of hybrid instrument industries are going to collapse. If you thought you needed God, for example, to erase doubt, or you thought you needed a church, or you thought you needed psychology, or you even thought you the, you know, the music. Disconnect music from the value of the human being. And now you have the possibility of playing it, playing with it. So let’s say you’re on the fourth step, you’ve already gotten over yourself, right? It’s another way of saying it. Now, you hear that? If I say neurologically is transparent to me where one is? I don’t have to think I’m a master. Everybody always asked me, How can I repeat the mantra I am a master? Well, we can find something like walking or using a fork. And if you’re from parts of Asia, using chopsticks, now they take that for granted. Not me, I’m sitting there trying to get up three grains of I have to push them together to drag a piece of chicken out of the frickin ramen. Okay, so it’s all relative to the neurology. So let’s say my neurology says even like faster
now my question to you is, when the neuron when the neurology is transparent, like walking, you don’t have to think about the neurology of walking. There’s also very little if any ego in walking, you don’t think, well, Monk would walk this way. Some people actually do. But you know what I mean, generally, we walk to the bodega down the street, we don’t really give it a lot of thought. So a neurological certainty, causes a physiological mastery. You don’t do to left foot, it’s left, right, left, right, without thinking, one serves the other. And it happens by itself. First of all, music can be learned on that level. And then you see the miracle you see in some people’s playing. I like to play people and explain to them that way. And then they go, Oh, it’s not just this vague thing that people either have or they don’t talent. No, it’s all neurology. If you’re patient enough, this is my question. When the neurology is so transparent, that the physiology is automatic, what do you call that? I called it neurological physiology. And I gotta believe there’s a better term than that.
Bradley Vines 18:32
That’s a good way to put it. I mean, there are a couple of terms that come to mind and, and maybe taking a step back. As I’ve been delving deeper and deeper into the neuroscience of improvisation and music more generally, I see many an insight that aligns with what you knew, and have been refining your communication of so many decades ago, and and into the present and future. So
Kenny Werner 19:03
let’s say you’re picking your nose, you want to pick your nose? You don’t accidentally poke yourself in the eye? No. Okay. The neurological awareness of where the nose is, is automatic. I call that a transparency, right? Why does the man go there? What’s the physiology thing that follows? Or all I’m asking you, does complete neurological transparency. The de facto is a physical movement.
Bradley Vines 19:34
There are so many great examples. So physical movement is is definitely ultimately the currency of our embodied presence in the world or experience. If we take let’s say, I think a paradigmatic example is bicycle riding. So doesn’t matter how much I teach you about physics, and the mechanics of that bicycle and what you’re going to do when you take off You’re just going to have to get on the machine and figure it out, the body is going to have to figure it out. And after a certain amount of time with repetition, as you noted as particularly important, it will become a fluid process where your muscles through proprioceptive feedback and so on and aligned with your intentions for where you want to go, you’re going to get a feel for it. Now this is called developing what we would call procedural memory. So I think there’s four,
Kenny Werner 20:35
what was the word? Memory, what’s myelin.
Bradley Vines 20:40
Myelin. Now, myelin. Now this is okay. So the brain, you’ve got the nerve cells, the neurons, and they’ve got a cell body, and then these axons that extend out, and those are, those axons are the means by which they reach towards other neurons and send their signals onward. So myelin is what basically coats the axon, which makes it easier for information to flow. And that speeds up processing basically. So you find that, that neurons that are getting used more, yes, there are certain pathways are going to get reinforced both with the myelin development, but also the development of dendrites, which are kind of the antenna I have the next neuron listening is that word? I’m sorry? dendrites? Yeah, there’s there’s a whole there’s a whole physiology involved here. Indeed.
Kenny Werner 21:42
That’s what I’m asking you. Is the neurological transparency, the absolute knowledge in the brain of how to ride a bike? Does that Auto Translate to physical manifestation of
Bradley Vines 21:56
it? It does, indeed. So there is
Kenny Werner 21:59
no neurological physiology. There’s just neurological transparency, because the other thing is already
Bradley Vines 22:06
failed to complete. Exactly, basically, yeah.
Kenny Werner 22:09
So I’ve had this question now for a year,
Bradley Vines 22:12
a very simple way to put it is that whatever you do is increasing the chances of you doing that thing again, in future.
Kenny Werner 22:22
Even though the manifestation is physical, neurological Transparency means I look at a map and I can see what is new North America and South America that’s neurologically transparent. But it’s only within the realm of mental transparency, mental recognition, I’m calling it the dawn of recognition, right? But I couldn’t explain and now you’re telling me, they are bonded. That’s why there isn’t exactly a word, unless you want to go with about five or six syllables. You know, look, if I do this
that’s effortless mastery. But so it’s this. People asked me, How can you give me a meditation that says, I am a master, because you are a master. And now I’m realizing this is already benefiting me that we’re talking. Complete neurological transparency makes you a master of a physical action, because it is done perfectly every time without thought. And that’s why, if we set the neurology first, instead of practicing with this neurology, I’m unworthy. Which is where most people get to, if they didn’t start, nobody started that way. It was either parents, or their first teacher, or a restrictive public school environment or something in the society taught us to care. After the first experience, which if you look at children touch the instrument, is the truth.
Kenny Werner 24:24
That’s the truth. Everything after that is a permutation of ego. Which is to say, How am I doing? The one question that limits musicians in their quest to get better, or musicians in their quest to enjoy playing? And now effortless mastery is not just about music anymore. The one sentence that gets in the way, how am I doing? So the surge, elimination of that question, so that even when it does pop up in in neurology, your first instinct is, oh, let me focus on something else, because that’s the last question I ever want to think about again. How many times have you ever asked yourself, how am I doing? Did your day get better? And it always got worse. So I’m going to show you step zero right now, if I may. Now, please. Now this is where we borrow from yoga, we’re borrowing from the Vedas. We’re borrowing from the Mahabharata, from the Bhagavad Gita. When Krishna comes, and he ministers to our juniors, he’s about to go into battle. This battle has a whole representative, it’s all about the mind and the ego and the spirit, but it’s represented as a battle of royal families. So a basic thing of I don’t like saying Hinduism, because it is Hinduism. But that’s also the religion, which is always a structure that obscures the spiritual heart of the religion, right? But the Vedas, Vedanta is very, is that the Bhagavad Gita is, I don’t know, 700 verses on detachment, do your dharma, dharma is the action you are meant to do. This whole thing is a play, and you’re playing your part. Don’t do it. Watch it being done. Now that is not original, that goes back to the earliest scripture of metaphysical scriptures to be the witness. That was even the name of it, the witness consciousness. So
Kenny Werner 26:43
if I witness, the piano being played, well changes in neurology quite a bit. So it’s not my responsibility, you could simulate it by watching someone else move their hands on the piano.
And notice that you’re not involved at all. Because in your mind, you’re watching someone else play, they play too good, you might have a little bit of attack of self esteem. Which is why listening has been ruined for musicians, because of the urge to judge themselves against what they’re listening. However, if you’re if you’re not, if you’re blessed to not be a musician, then you just look oh, look, his hands are moving. And I feel in no way responsible for where they’re going. The neurology of the first two steps is to be able to experience that, although it’s you. So it has the neurological component of surgically removing the responsibility. Responsibility when it comes to creativity is a buzzkill. Respect is fine. But right before you’re about to commit the creativity, you need to Divest yourself of all respect for what has ever been. Because that becomes the baggage that you’re trying to play through. How do you create that neurology, the recognition that no one has ever pressed this button before me. And then you’re noticing something now, aren’t you, Bradley, that there’s not one note, that doesn’t go as if the universe ordained it with the previous note, without exception. But what allows this to happen is a mindset. And a mindset is a polite term for neurological transparency, which is a term I made up earlier today. Maybe it exists in the science. That’s why you and I can probably have some, some add to the body of work. But the thing is not to add to the body of work, but add to the body of people that can experience it. Let’s get more people out of the delusion and into the truth. The first thing they got to know is it’s so much easier than they imagined. So that transparency, sets up a new polarity or a new software. And by this way, I think you’ll appreciate this as a neuroscientist. Now we don’t limited to people that are musicians. There’s two instruments that you can easily practice this neurology, drums and piano. You don’t have to know anything about the piano to play the notes saxophone, you get hung up on, well does armature violin, you could really do it. But because if you understand that this arm does this, and this hand does that, actually, you can do it. But it’s a lot more pleasant on the piano, which doesn’t sound much worse than someone who never played it or someone that’s a virtual so so the piano And the drums then become a new therapy for liberating people from and you can use all the psychobabble and all the holist about Well, that’s a word I made up. Holistic language has become as bad ballistic as psychology babble. So there’s a new word. You’ve heard psychobabble, right? Oh, yes. Yes. What is popular, right? A list of Babel. That’s all the language of liberation and none of the experience that you have to look at the person that’s saying, You should love your mistakes. There’s one. That’s good holistic babble right? Meaning, don’t you believe the truth is that you are more precious, and your preciousness is not in any way affected by making mistakes? Don’t you believe that? Of course. But then if you make a mistake, and an instrument will hold a mirror up to you, you’ll realize that even though you believe it, you can’t access that thought at that moment. So the language of freedom is not nearly as important as the experience of freedom. And then the question is, what exercise are we going to do? Because without an exercise that remains holistic Babel, kind of right to a list of Babel. Think goes like like that? Yeah, it’s coming. Luckily, we’re recording. That’s the first four bars and Melissa Babel, could be three and a half, or five and one quarter, I wasn’t really counting. But you see what I mean? Without the barriers, the pseudo the barriers, whoa, get ready for quotation marks, the barriers of pseudo importance. US it belongs to everybody on contact. Wages learn to move your fingers faster. Now having codified that liberation, naturally, the question comes up, how do I do that while playing something real, which is to say a form or in time, or what if you want to be a liberated being and before that? Now, the fourth, the third step is this. First step is this. I’m watching my actually, we need to step zero. This is where every class I’m going to do with you. Okay. All right. We hear that
was a fire truck going by? Huh? Okay, that was God saying? Check this out. Bradley. Okay, ready? Yep. Are you breathing? Your breathing? Right?
Bradley Vines 33:05
Yes.
Kenny Werner 33:06
You don’t have to think about it. It’s not a trick question. You are breathing. Right? Absolutely. Even when you’re not focusing on your breathing, you’re still breathing. Luckily, luckily, your breathing is not dependent on your self esteem. Like other things, like I’m going to give a lecture on neuroscience. And I want it to be good. Now. It’s not gonna be such a great lecture, right? Which is the foundation of effortless mastery. Trying is what gets in the way. hardly unique, but never so well. deprogram, then effortless mastery. Okay. So luckily, you could be in your worst state of mind, you’re still breathing. You could have just had a baby, you’re still breathing. You could have just lost a child. You’re still breathing. You could have had the best gig. I assume you play an instrument to have your life but you’re still breathing. You could have embarrassed yourself in front of 1000 people, you’re still breathing. So breathing, we’re going to use a little differently than all the other holistic models. Breathing happens. Whether you’re spiritually fit or not. Whether you like yourself or not, right. You’re breathing whether you watching it or not, right? Yes. Can you feel approximately where you’re breathing in your body? In the body is a machine. Right in the machine. There’s a gizmo in the machine. It’s somewhere around here, right? You can feel that right. And it breathes it’s like the boiler in the basement. It breathes right? For 20 seconds for a very short time. All I want you to do is watch it. Breathe. Ready go.
Now stop. Now, when you look at this video, you’re gonna see a change in you.
You’ll see it. That’s why I can do these courses online. Now, I’m not gonna explain it yet. Let’s do it again. But remember, don’t translate it into anything more meaningful than exactly what I’m asking you to do. You breathe, right? You are breathing before you are watching. For 20 seconds, find the gizmo in the chest that breathes. And watch it ready, go. Don’t close your eyes, because then you’re conflating it with meditation. Okay, okay, is manifestly unspiritual Let’s stop. Let’s do it again. I’m gonna describe it again. There’s a gizmo in your body and it breathes. Watch it, watch it, breathe, not you. Watch it breathe. For 20 seconds, go. But look at me when I look at you. But we’re not looking at each other. We’re watching ourselves breathe.
Watch it breathe. I mean, really watch it free
you go. And stop. It’s hard to stop when I say stop. But if I said How long can you do it, then you wouldn’t be trying to keep it going and you’d stop. Reverse psychology is a very real thing. Okay, now, did you have an experience? Absolutely. It was the absence of things. There wasn’t a unit you just that was not there before. It was to you that’s always there. But for all these imaginary barriers. So I’ll tell you what is the innovation of this step zero. For one, you don’t say I’m going to watch myself breathe. You remind yourself well, I’m already breathing. So I’m not about to do anything. To you imagine it as something that exists separately from you know what, you’re going to watch it breathe. Three, you’re only going to do it for 20 seconds. Because if I said do it for five minutes, you probably wouldn’t ever get there. But anybody can drop any aspect of their life for 20 seconds. So it disarms the feeling that you’re losing your life because you have to let go for five minutes. For 20 seconds I can let go of anything for when you’re done, you say stop and you don’t even think about it. It’s like it never happened. So you’re introducing something to the mind that you’re not going to clouded up with the imposition of meaning and urge for it to have meaning you would have had to refer back to it to divine its meaning but if you don’t go back to it it never happened. However, there are impressions left and this is the neurology by do it once it’ll be something I can recall wow I can he put me through this trippy little thing. So the next innovation was your stopping when you stop you know go back to watching TV go back to whatever take another bite of a meatball whatever really stop it has to be free of the past or the future. It has to be free of challenge and for do that you have to remember how simple it is finally the less innovation less Do you think my god he’s come up with something so simple. It allows me to change No, you’re not going to change because you will change back very quickly. So after you’re done whatever neurological thought you were thinking about whatever your future how’s your future gonna be? What are the things age appropriate? I don’t know You don’t look like you’re close to retirement yet. We’ll Berkeley up my contract again. It could be that or what about how many people ever come to my masterclass Am I give a thing on neuroscience or whatever you were thinking about questions that have no answers, otherwise known as the future. After you’re done with this exercise, you’re not only don’t try not to do that you invite yourself to go back to your problems. Okay, I watched it brief. I’m done. Now let me go back to obsessing about shit that I have no control over, which is the majority of what hangs up people in this world, especially this world, especially this time. Right? Maybe trying to thank God, I have so many passwords. I gotta buy one of those services that stores your passwords. You know, this world, there’s plenty to lose the presence on. So after you’ve done this exercise for only 20 seconds, but you couldn’t make it half a minute, if that feels better. You give yourself permission to get entangled again. And whatever it was, you were thinking about that step zero, beautiful. Now, here are some of the backups if you want to make it spiritual. You could say this. I’m not breathing. I’m watching it brief. Here’s how it becomes spiritual, a very aligned with whatever the spiritual heart is. Vedanta, whatever. Do you know that Guru? Ramana, Maharshi? And yes, okay, he only had one practice, one practice, right? You don’t have to chant. You don’t have to meditate. You don’t have to do austerities he had one practice, who are you? The teacher I studied with which I don’t say publicly and I’m not supposed to say publicly was a guru taught witness consciousness. So this is a very, very old practice. The science of the mind was available, we’ll just say in the East 1000s of years before the West. And then there was this distraction of religion. That completely took us away from the point of a science. But if you look at the scriptures 500 A D. 1000. BCE, they say Before Common Era now, right? You Oh my God, these cats had it figured this is 15. This is like 2500 years before Freud. You know, I’m saying. So from those sources, whatever you want to call it, the east, I like to say it definitely came out of the east. It expanded to the a different part of the East, Japan, China, Hong Kong, became Buddhism, but Buddhism started in India. I guess it’s Indian, right? Character, Buddhism changed because the character of people from Japan, and the personality was different than the people of personality in India. But whatever the idea of witnessing Rama Ramana Maharshi would say, who are you? So if you were watching it, breathe? Who was watching?
Bradley Vines 43:11
Good question. Very good question. Well, then
Kenny Werner 43:14
it becomes a spiritual issue. Or if you want to talk about superconscious mind, what kind of science is that? Is that neuroscience? Or is that sort of psychology science? You know, conscious mind. self conscious, subconscious, super conscious. What is that science Bradley, I don’t even know.
Bradley Vines 43:32
All of these have a level of description of neuroscience in the realm of neuroscience, okay.
Kenny Werner 43:39
Or you say Universal Consciousness, right, universal consciousness, which is a language that I think comes from when religion systemically, not everybody, and not every pastor and not every church, but when religion and mass started to separate us from ourselves. Another form had to come, and that’s what we call spirituality. How many people today say I’m not religious, but I am spiritual? If you are a religion, the answer is an alarmingly amount of people will say, I don’t belong to a religion, but I am spiritual in that understanding. There’s individual mind, universal mind, that may also be part of, of neuro neuroscience, but the idea is that I have universal consciousness is really borrowing from early Indian metaphysical scripture, I guess I call it India. It started in India so it’s another places to but I’m not a historian. I’m aware of the starts in India right? So in whatever language you mentioned, the tools are exactly the same. And effortless mastery is now a convergence. And now I’m going to really sound like, you know, bring on the influences, I guess, through me. Because I wasn’t looking for it. So that’s how you know it’s authentic. I never thought I want to be something to somebody I want to play, I’ll tell you what most musicians don’t admit, I want to be the best player in the world. And I want everybody in the world to fucking know it. And then I want to be paid millions of dollars to show it. Okay. However, I seem to have a different calling, as well as being pretty up there when it comes to playing. But I have this other calling. And the fact that I wasn’t looking for it, is the best indication of its authenticity. And today, it’s where it is, at this moment, there are still new terminology coming out, like the theory of relativity, that was two days ago, here’s the theory of relativity. They’ll sit knows, because since our facilitator, people aren’t seeing, but he’s my angel these days. This is called the second step. It’s like moving the hand spatially, and not paying attention to the superimposed meaning of the order.
But I just realized, but it’s the theory of relativity, isn’t it? I don’t know what that actually is, as expressed by Einstein, I don’t know what it actually is. But every note is relative to every other note, how could one be more relevant than another? It has to be a delusion, that one note is more relevant to another, not the truth can’t be the truth. The truth is the absence of desire. The truth is the absence of a goal. You have a goal, but you need to put it out of your mind. So you can pursue that goal. Because the oppression of the goal itself is reason enough to ruin this day. How do you remember the day Bradley? Thinking about your future? So it’s very universal? Right? Okay, I’m gonna shut up for a minute, you got something to ask me.
Bradley Vines 47:40
This is wonderful. Food for thought. Thank you for sharing all of this very enlightening. And it’s amazing to experience it in real time with you. So I am sure this, so much will come across to listeners, but it’s a real pleasure. And, and I do just see so many wonderful parallels with well just take, for example, this idea of relativity. It’s something that Roger Shepard who was a leading neuroscientists, cognitive scientists, took into account when he created his model of pitch, pitch, pitch relationships, that involves this helix formation that allows for pitch height, but also tonal qualities of the pitch quality. And also tonal relationships, these ideas of self definitely have parallels in, in the emerging neuroscience and, and also just theoretical understanding of consciousness as a kind of program, like you have said, so something that’s running in the background, just like any other perceptual process, like seeing this,
Kenny Werner 48:55
like CPU, computing power in the computer. Yeah,
Bradley Vines 49:00
it’s a creation of the mind. So you’ve touched on a bunch of things that I wanted to talk about meditation and, and music. It’s psychedelics, to some extent, there’s maybe more to explore there.
Kenny Werner 49:16
Yeah, oh, almost three things. We’ll just take meditation for a second. Let’s do that. Let’s do that. Words that originally indicated liberation become the new prison. If you ask the average person, Let’s meditate. Their first thought was, I can’t do that. Because meditation, the word has gained enough pseudo meaning to obscure the act of zero. If I call it a meditation, you wouldn’t be able to do it again. But if I said, Hey, Bradley, are you breathing? And he said, Yeah. Were you breathing before I asked you that? Yeah. You see where it is? Yeah, watch it. Okay. Now you actually are meditating. But nobody presented it quite that it was that available to people that weren’t quite that lazy. Like me. This is something you’ll find interesting. I always thought of myself as less than because everybody works. So hard music, nobody believes they were asking me last night this party. Of course, she spent four hours a day right now, we got to ask every woman from my wife all the way back to my mother, she recipes I never practiced. I’m not recommending it. But once I embrace the fact that I never practiced, I figured out how to do more change in my playing with 20 minutes than other people when they’re sitting there grinding it out for four hours, which I share, but only at the level of the fourth step. Because if you can’t change the polarity of your mind of caring, you couldn’t do it anyway, even if I showed it to you. Your mind is way wired to not be that simple. Especially around music, which you presume to be of a finer quality than you this general idea of music. So in the same way music has become a word has baggage, meditation has baggage, listening, has baggage. Now you ask any musician, when they listen, they think you ask anybody at Berkeley, especially what is listening me, I have to understand it, or I have to transcribe it. Definitely transcribing is potentially one of the most harmful things you can do. Not for your ear, but for your neurology. Because after you transcribe, you can never listen to anything anymore without being conscious that you’re not transcribing it. Neurology, right. However, you can transcribe, we can’t cover it all in one session, right? But listening means trying to figure out for a musician, listening means comparing yourself to the person you’re listening to. Do you know and a lot of kids if you shy don’t know you’re gonna show this to but people are studying or shake their head? Yes, when I say this, how many people avoid listening, because it challenges them to have a lower opinion of themselves in relation to the person they’re listening to. So therefore, it’d be just better if they didn’t have time to listen today. So I’ve replaced the word listening, which now is corrupted with hearing. Why would you have to listen? Why would I have to listen to this? It’s being played in the same room that I’m in? I’ll hear it. If it’s in the same room, I’m going to hear it why would I have to listen? So at least for now, hearing is a clarification and a relieving of ego as opposed to listening. Listening beckons self judgment. Listening, invites comparisons. Here hearing is just something you do. If something’s making a noise in the same room you’re in, you hear it. Now, will they find a way to put baggage on hearing? I’m sure somebody will. But sometimes you need a term to defang the previous term, listening meditation, God, Oh, my God, what word has been corrupted more than that? So terminology has a way of becoming corrupt. Because So ultimately, look, it’s not about the terminology. It’s not about the technology. I’m saying this for certain person to send me this video. Because this guy’s invented new instruments. He thinks terminology change, technology changes anything it doesn’t. There’s only one thing that changes anything. The mindset of the instrument, the mindset of a human being, we won’t save this planet with new technology. Or it will take a mindset to create it. What we already have it, don’t we? But without a change in mindset. We can’t use it. Right? What a perfect example. I never said that before. And that’s why effortless mastery is still evolving through me. I have a name for it isn’t ism. It’s not Hinduism. It’s not Buddhism. It’s not Christian mysticism, not communism. Capitalism. It’s Long Island Jew ism. Right. Now, why is it Long Island Judaism? Because I’m a Jew, not a practicing Jew from Long Island. And this is coming out of my mouth. It is the tyranny of terminology. Is the delusion that technology is the way and it takes a lazy man are a lazy person, a lazy mammal that covers it right? To find the truth? You know, there’s a saying. Necessity is the mother of invention. Laziness as a mother of invention. I can give me an example of one of the earliest examples, the wheel. Well, how many 1000s of weird years? Were they already moving things and going from place to place? Did they really need the wheel? Or were they tired of walking? So really, laziness is the mother of invention. Now, you know that, if you honor your laziness, you’ll find pathways that lazy people were previously exempt from, because it took work. Cool, right? So this whole thing comes together in some sort of a macro, a quilt of understandings that now can mesh together by allowing for the intuitive spewing of it, rather than the erudition, of studying it. But without an exercise, there is no movement. Now, if you go back to the Vedas, the Mahabharata no the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna is the little blue man. Krishna is blue. Actually, I have a tune
remember it, but you can find it on YouTube. Go Kenny Werner trio, Little Blue Man. It’s about Krishna.
People we know would have great philosophical statements that they would agree with. Right? But here’s the thing that I discovered from my laziness. Here’s your philosophy. But here’s your experience. Why is there a schism between the two? And I can use one of the most blatant examples. Love your mistakes. Don’t you believe that? You might have even taught that. Right? Love your mistakes. But do you? So it’s a very blatant example, when you were making mistakes when i What if I said, Should you love him? And he said, Yes. I’m talking to my friend over here. Okay, so how do you get to the Schism? Here’s the philosophy. That’s what you believe. But this is how you behave. A practice. There has to be a practice. Doesn’t have to be daily, but it has to be repetitive. And see every other day or this morning and Lebanon yesterday, I thought tomorrow, five, and two days didn’t go and you don’t care that you didn’t do it for three days. It’s 12 o’clock. You’re going to do it right now. But you except like brushing your teeth. Here’s the example that I came up with. Okay? If practicing music was like brushing your teeth, everybody would continually get better. Think of the neurology that means the associations with brushing your teeth a no matter how well you brush them tonight. You fully expect to brush them tomorrow morning. Be you’re not tricked into thinking you’re getting anywhere by brushing your teeth. Oh, wow, man, if I keep doing this, I’m gonna be pretty soon. No, there’s no sense of a destination. It’s just something you have to do. And no matter how good you do it tonight, you can do it again. Tomorrow, most people will brush their teeth in the morning and night. And then in the morning again. If you take the neurological implications, which are none of brushing your teeth and you apply them to I’m going to practice playing an 11 or I’m going to practice to but we were practicing this tune called Animal Crackers. You can look this up to everybody. Animal Crackers, my trio recorded it
and it’s basically an etude having stuff that I don’t do well. That’s what etudes were, right an etude. So you can practice some mechanical thing you don’t do well, like the left hand was a
Ah something like that, I don’t know, very, you know, actually remarkably close at moments. But there’s not another human being in the world that would let themselves do that. Because they think it matters. Alright, but let me not go off topic. So if you were able to transpose now musicians understand that the lack of meaning of brushing your teeth to practicing, you probably do it all the time. Well, yeah you wouldn’t care how far you gotten, you would just notice that some tartar, there’s some tartar in bar too. And you will erase it. So the transposing of meaning is a way. But it has to be an exercise of some kind. Because if it’s not an exercise, it’ll just be a thought, which means it’s in the realm of unused ability. You can have the thought that you should love your mistakes Bradley, but if you don’t have a practice of actually loving your mistakes, even if you don’t mean it, and you’ll find you evolve to meaning it. Oh my God, I didn’t realize I actually love my mistakes. I didn’t I thought it was just something you say. To lesson lighten musicians and yourself. Oh, Aren’t I cool, man pass that joint. Yeah, man. You gotta love your mistakes. Yeah, but you need an exercise to go from the mode. This is your philosophy. But this is where no, let’s do it this way. This is your philosophy. But this is really where you’re at. And you want to get there. You have to have a daily or repetitive exercise that actually actualizes that. So how do you touch the instrument without caring? So I will show you step one. Tried to get the hand in there in the chorus. And it’s on every instrument that guitar violin drums. I’ve done it with every oboe. Oboe players are the most neurologically convinced that they’re masochists. That’s why they play the oboe. Any oboe is watching your podcast. Now they’re gonna laugh. Because it’s true. You accept the pain of playing the oboe, or trombone players are neurologically locked in to know that they’re not supposed to be specific in their tonality. That’s because, you know, here’s part of my I am also working on becoming a stand up comedian. Okay. But it seems like I’m at my funniest when I’m doing this deep wisdom. So anyway, trombone, you know, that was a practical joke, right? Trombone was a practical joke. A guy said, you know, we could just give him vows, and then you can play there. But let’s invent this instrument. Every note, you gotta move his hands like that. It’ll be a practice, we’re going to play this practical joke on one guy. And what happened? Was it caught on and people took it seriously. I’m gonna play this instrument doing this. What do I have to do with this? On a lower horn? So I tell that to every trombone player. Now, here’s the lesson. We’re not going to presume that your notes should be sloppy because you’re a trombone player. But we’re used to that sound. Even good trombone players, if they go like they do that is gonna be on all. Wow, great. Now what if we presume that this neurologically and then the physical result of it is as easy as this? We’re going to practice something much deeper than we would have. If our neurology was convinced that this is supposed to be a practical joke that this is supposed to be sloppy. So when you you have to have an exercise. Alright, here’s the first step. None of this will work badly unless you can approach your instrument and think about something else before you start playing. Now that way, anybody could do it. You can look out the window. Or you could be binge watching something on Netflix. But while you’re looking at it, that’s probably very effective because you’re deeply for what happened over here
yeah, that’s that that’s instructive. But when we decide to grab on something, that’s the properties of give you a little quiz. Here’s something exists in you. It never changes. It always works. It you can’t mess it up. unless something happens to you physically, that’s kind of a hint. And it’s always happening with inside you with absolutely no care or concern for the drama that you call your life. What is it?
Bradley Vines 1:05:13
Well, you’ve mentioned breathing.
Kenny Werner 1:05:15
That’s it. It’s your breath. Well, heart rate too, but it’s kind of hard to feel your heart rate. But you can always catch them breathing. So the first step is this. You don’t focus on this at a tooth monster. You focus on your that spot that you’ve been doing with step zero. Now, while you’re focusing on that, oh, the hand went up over here, that was just simple neurology. I know how to do this with my hand. And I know when my hand touches these white keys, I am dimly aware that this smooth, they’re shiny, I’m dimly aware of the temperature of them. That is tactile sensation. Some people call it mindless mindfulness. I hate that word. Now. Mindfulness is bullshit now, too, it’s been overused. Unfortunately, it’s a casualty of overuse, like wellness. Meaningless. How do I know that when I saw wellness on my insurance policy, I knew it no longer me it meant anything. When you can get a 10% discount on your health insurance, we’re being mindful mindfulness will have ceased to mean anything. Okay. But you could say, I’m moving my hand, I am mindful of the fact that his fingertips are touching the keys. But that’s not even me. What am I focusing on? Well, I was already breathing. I’m watching it brief. It’s a little more challenging than binge watching on Netflix, or reading a book, but they all work. But if you can do this, I’m not looking outward Bradley, I’m looking inward while staring at you. That’s what those paintings of Jesus and you, anybody, Moses, there are certain paintings of Krishna, and Shiva. And and there’s something different about them. What what is that? coin that’s over their head? Somebody turned it into a coin, obviously. But what was that aura. And then the person is looking down with this incredible compassion. If you’re looking at a different he’s not looking at anything, this it’s a lens through which something is looking through. So the most closest thing I can get to that that’s internal, it’s not dependent on counting the leaves on a tree, for example, which is works. I’m breathing in. Thank God. I’m breathing out. If there is a God, I always have to preface it with that.
I’m breathing in. Wow, the last one felt good. Now let me go. Do you know that within you if there is a God,
you don’t need drugs. Every time you breathe in, you would associate with getting high if instead of calling breathing in I said vaping Oh shit. Yeah, thank you, God or whoever. Now, what do we do that gets us in trouble. We’re always seeking release. And it’s so easy to fire in the wrong venues of release. And then that’s the trouble isn’t it? The 60s becomes the 70s. But every time I vaped I get a release. Now not using my exhale to make this next note happen. I’m not doing this. No, that would be cheating. I am not involved. So I can also talk to you can’t just put my hand over here next to you. So sometimes I tell somebody, count the viewer from Israel count backwards from 100 and Israeli or whatever, you know, Hebrew. And while they’re doing that, who’s playing? That you could spend a lifetime trying to figure out and becomes a spiritual path. But we already know it’s neurology at hand knows how to be lifted. It knows how to balance on the keys. It can lift a finger and Goddamnit it can drop it. Just like every inhale causes an exhale. So once you realize that the inhale is getting high, and the exhale is a release from responsibility. Imagine how happier lazy person can become all I gotta do. I’m already breathing. Fortunately, I don’t have to do anything. But instead of thinking about my problems, which is another word for living in the future, because it’s very rare that you have a problem in this moment, very rare. You get a call, someone died. You have a problem. And it’s in this moment, you just got to call. But how often does that happen? Whenever you’re worried about how many days have you spent worrying about when it hasn’t happened yet? Now in program, they know this, they say 95% of the things we’re worried about will never happen. So keep worrying. Yeah. And it’s, oh, you’ve got Eckhart Tolle. The Power of Now, I mean, this, he covered that, if you’re thinking about tomorrow, you’re not in the present. If you’re thinking about when is this over? Then you’re not in the present. If you’re thinking about what were those other 11 questions I had, you’re not in the present. If you’re thinking about, I can’t wait to get this ready to put out, you’re not in the present. So for good or bad. The trick of being in the present, one of the things we have in our body, that is a machine that is only in the present, is our breathing. So in that way if you can get used to that model, and that’s why I’ve added step zero wasn’t in the book, step zero, as you’re walking down the street, and you’re thinking shit, I parked my car three blocks away, and it’s hot out today. Or I can go Yeah, I’m already anticipating the length of how far away My car is. I’m experiencing the heat more. So because I’m referencing heat as something I don’t like, you know, you’re not in the present, you’re either in the past, the past is more related to the depression. And the future is more related to anxiety. If you’re practicing effortless mastery, if you’re in the class, I’m going to ask you to do this. Okay. I’ve been down this road many times before. This road never ends. Well. I was trying to figure out questions that don’t have any answers. I’ve already been down that road, it’s already a form of enlightenment to acknowledge you’re going down a road, which never ends well, though, it’s not like you figure it out. You always emerge from thinking about the future, less confident than you were when you were just in the moment. And those moments become precious to you. So if you here’s something everybody agree on most of your friends, you need to live in the moment, right? We all agreed and that that’s a good holistic babble. How many people live in the moment? Everybody says it. So you need an exercise. So you go, Okay, I’ve been down this. By the way, I lovingly call that the shithole. And I think this thing I’m telling you and several things are in the second book. They were things that unearthed since I wrote the first book, I say, you’re going down the left fork will say, which I lovingly call the shithole, or quicksand, because you’re gonna go down that path, but it’s not going to yield any peace. Right? It’s just going to make you less tolerant tolerance of the present. may say, I’ve been on a road many times, it never ends well. However I am breathing. I think I’ll watch it breathe right now.
Now, I can only do this for 10 seconds or 20 seconds. Because if I said I’m going to stop what’s going to happen Bradley, you’re not going to be able to do it. Thereby affirming neurologically the importance of your ability to channel your thoughts. were so convinced that we can’t do that. And you know what, you’re right. You cannot change your thoughts. Your mind is smarter than you are. But you can and my class last class, because I started using this last semester. They know this word, I did a quiz with him. It was really fun. You can’t change, but you can interrupt your thoughts. So I know I’m worried and I give myself permission to worry about it again. But I’m going to take 20 seconds and interrupt that thought with the simple observe instead I was doing something already. I was breathing. Now you got to learn to do that because if you assign meaning to it, like it’s supposed to change you, you won’t find Do you have to be convinced that what I’m saying to you is no more complicated than what I said? Let’s go through the cycle. Are you breathing? Yes, I’m already breathing. Where? Oh, somewhere in here. Watch it breathe
but only for 20 seconds or 30 seconds. Okay, stop. Now go back to worrying. Now if you were taking my course you would keep a little bit of a journal, a lazy man’s journal, it could be like one sentence.
I did Kenny’s exercise, the thing I was worried about soil got went away for a while, write it down. I did step zero. And suddenly I had vitality that was lacking, because the future was weighing me down. The neurological sense of the future is that it increases gravity. What puts somebody on the couch? The future? What am I going to do in my life? God, nothing sets my ass on the couch faster than that. Right? But you’ve interrupted it. With something so simple. Even an American can do it. Or even an American to do it. Check that out. I’m already breathing. I’ll watch it for like a half a minute. And then I’ll go back to what I was obsessing about. And this is where we need to do some research because I’ve already done the research. My students have changed, not because I sucked them into thinking they could change. But I’ve convinced them how easy it is to interrupt. So we, we did a quiz. I want to show I’m gonna send this to my last class because we did this quiz. All right, I’ve been teaching you this for all these semester. You’re walking down the street in Boston, everything’s fine. It’s a beautiful day. And you’re troubled. You’re troubled, because you’re worried I don’t play good enough. That would be a common thing that’s appropriate to anybody that’s going to Berkeley. So many people play better than me. Oh, there you go. Have I not nailed it for like, was it 7000 students? 6995 of them are thinking this. So many people play better than me. You’re walking down a street, you’re walking down Boylston Street. Pretty soon as coffee places as the dispensary as the Apple Store supposed to be the answer to something right. You’re walking down Bledsoe street, you’re not happy. What’s wrong, the weather is fine, you’re healthy, you’re breathing. You have a background thing working in the operating system. I don’t compare well to other musicians. And no matter how you unless you get high, which some people fall into getting high, they go, Wow, I feel great. Don’t go that way. I mean, don’t get high for that reason. Because you don’t feel good. And getting high will make you feel better. Because like the 60s morphed into the 70s There’ll be become about getting high just to feel normal. In the beginning, it seems to solve something. So I say to them, you’re walking down the street, and you can’t really be happy because when you compare yourself to others, you’re not as good, right? You can’t change that. Don’t even worry about but you can blank it. And they’ll go I say give me the answer and whoever it is I’m gonna buy them a cupcake. Whoever gets this right, they get a cupcake tomorrow. That’s your grade. Okay, so if we graded in cupcakes, they’d be a lot more great musicians at Berkeley. Okay. Anyway, you can quote that. Okay. Anyway, so they go, not care. No, that’s not a right answer. You’re going down the street, there’s no problem. You don’t feel good. And you can’t change that. But you can blank it and ask the God, they came up with a lot of right answers, meaning they studied effortless mastery. But it wasn’t the answer to this question. The you know, the answer this question, I’ll say it again. And the hint is I said it recently, you’re walking down Boylston Street, everything’s fine. The temperature is perfect. But you’re not happy. You can’t change that. Because your mind is smarter than you are. But you can blank it. What’s the word?
Bradley Vines 1:19:41
Interrupt?
Kenny Werner 1:19:43
Yes, it’s interrupt. I did say it to you only five minutes ago. I’m going into it. And here’s the new neurological discovery. You can’t change yourself. So stop expecting it. But you can interrupt the self that you’re in the habit of Bing. Now, the mind takes a picture of that the brain moments of interrupting what you thought was reality. And it starts to go from a momentary thing to sort of a fork in the road. I could go down to the shithole, which is empowering problems that I have no answers for. But I am breathing. I’ll just watch out for half a minute, then I’ll go to the shithole. The more times you do that, another sort of imagery is you got a wall. That’s the wall between you and reality. On the other side of the wall is the light. You don’t see the light you see a wall every time you interrupt it. Little hole in the wall. At first is little pinpricks of light coming through the wall. That was the interruption. You didn’t know that enlightenment was so easy. You weren’t lazy enough to let an enlightenment come to you. But if you interrupt it, wow. Now I can’t apply the same thing. But suddenly, it’s the absence of everything. Turns out that’s what you will go for. Now go on deal with problems. I’m not as good as certain people I’ll never be as good, of course I could deal with psychologically, is that when you’re going to make your bottom line as a person for self love or self acceptance? Is that going to be it? Well, no matter how much you convince me of a bunch of holistic babble, a walk out of here, I’ll still be pissed off. When I hear someone play better than me. This is how I found it. And however, this master became a massive hit. Unfortunately, it didn’t become that hidden one year, I would have gotten the royalties all in one year. It sells a study 510 1000 books a year. Unfortunately, it’s spread out annually. But it’s so common the problem for musicians. And I don’t want to hear the psychobabble or the holistic Bible, tell me how I can change it. I say you can’t, you’re never going to feel good about yourself. Because you’re not the player you wish you were, you might feel pretty good about yourself, man, when I obliterate everybody else, when I start to play, that makes me happy. Believe it or not, those people suffer from as much bipolar and anxiety as the people. That’s a that’s a clue. The propensity to worry is a neurological condition. And guess what effortless mastery has respect enough to say you’re not going to change it. But you can interrupt it. And what I discovered by just going intuitively like this, is that the more people interrupt it, the more it becomes a fork in the road, those little pinpricks of light starts to look a little more like Swiss cheese. Wow, this these areas of light, because I don’t have to do this to myself. But if I do do it to myself, which I can’t control, I can always interrupt it at least. And the widening of consciousness continues. But very incrementally, that’s why a campaign forget New Year’s resolutions, they suck. They’re too broad. And very rarely does anyone ever carry through a New Year’s resolution. So it’s it’s like about a point, it’s got less point and putting a pumpkin on your thing during Halloween has no point because you’re not going to do it. The broadness of your hopes, ensures the the dilution of them of the solution, the dilution of the solution. And the more you limit the area that you will just temporarily interrupt. The more you introduce a neurology to the mind that changes through interruption, but never through the actual presumption of change.
Bradley Vines 1:24:15
So you come in through the back the backdoor into into behavior change.
Kenny Werner 1:24:20
No, I kind of think 20 said, Well, you know, what could I do? I can’t commit I never practiced. I mean, yeah, there might have been two or three days I practice 40 minutes in a row. Actually one semester at Berkeley. I was so happy to be there. And I was the only time I did have a piano I walked out have one street every day to go into a practice room. I said, I can’t believe this. I’m practicing. But that wore off. You go back to the neurology you’re used to which is not practicing. But hating yourself because you don’t practice that goes back to childhood. You know, and so on neurological pathways, if we want to narrow it down to something that applies to everything, it is neurology. I don’t care if you talk about God, the devil, sugar, heroin, self esteem before you try to deal with these things as if they were different problems. before all that, you can see it with the technology they now have to pattern eyes and watch the brain.
Bradley Vines 1:25:32
You’ve been very generous and this has been great
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
THE NEUROSCIENCE OF IMPROVISATION 