Our guest for this episode is Dr. Suresh Vaidyanathan, who is widely recognized as Ghatam Suresh. He is an extraordinary Carnatic Indian classical percussionist renowned for his mastery of the ancient Ghatam, a clay pot with distinctive resonant and percussive qualities. This instrument plays a pivotal role in Carnatic music as accompaniment and soloist. With a global presence as a leader and collaborator with world-class musicians, Dr. Vaidyanathan brings a unique perspective to the intersection of improvisation and musical expertise. Beyond his exceptional musical talents, Ghatam Suresh is a remarkable teacher known for his creativity and generosity as an exponent of rhythmic knowledge. He is also a scholar and recently completed his doctoral studies on the history of the Ghatam and its performance traditions! Dr. Vaidyanathan imparts invaluable insights into developing musical expertise through improvisation in this first installment of our enlightening conversation. He shares how his intellectual pursuits have enriched his musicianship and unveils his secrets to maintaining and nurturing the quality of mind required to excel in the world of music and the responsibility musicians hold to themselves and their audience. Join us as we delve into the fascinating world of Dr. Ghatam Suresh Vaidyanathan—a musician, scholar, and delightful person.
The musical interlude towards the beginning of the program features music composed and performed by Bradley Vines on alto and baritone saxophones. The first quote is by Louis Kahn taken from the documentary My Architect created by his son, Nathanial Kahn (https://www.amazon.com/My-Architect-Region-2/dp/B0006GVJLC/ref=sr_1_8?crid=2354GLU7P6J5Q&keywords=my+architect+nathaniel+kahn&qid=1693952870&sprefix=my+architect+nathaniel+kah%2Caps%2C439&sr=8-8). The second quote is by Joseph Goldstein from an interview for the Waking Up app (https://rss.samharris.org/feed/24802f09-a945-445c-8d45-81112d77276f).
There are four segments of Ghatam Suresh’s performances taken from four different YouTube videos:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re5h3EetEjw
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCdLXwoMsF8
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuEmHBKUMCA
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkmCrGJlNe4
The thumbnail picture of Dr. Vaidyanathan is from this website:
https://www.mylaporetimes.com/2020/04/ghatam-artiste-says-this-lockdown-is-a-blessing-in-disguise-for-him/
The audio for this episode was edited by Zeyn Mroueh.
Unedited transcript from Otter.ai:
Bradley Vines 0:00
Greetings and welcome to the neuroscience of improvisation
Louis Kahn 0:13
how accidentally are influenced by circumstance?
Joseph Goldstein 0:41
Africa as fate or karma or accident or whatever the conditions may be happened, they sent me to Thailand.
Bradley Vines 0:51
Our guest for this episode is Dr. Suresh Vijay Nathon. He is widely recognized as Gautam Suresh. He’s an extraordinary Carnatic Indian classical percussionist renowned for his mastery of the ancient Gautam, a clay pot with distinctive, resonant and percussive qualities.
This instrument plays a pivotal role in Carnatic music, both as accompaniment and soloist. With a global presence as a leader and collaborator with world class musicians. Dr. Vijayan often brings a unique perspective to the intersection of improvisation and musical expertise.
Beyond his exceptional musical talents, Gautam Suresh is a remarkable teacher known for his creativity and generosity as an exponent of rhythmic knowledge. He is also a scholar, and recently completed his doctoral studies on the history of the Gautam and its performance traditions. In this first installment of our enlightening conversation, Dr. viden often imparts invaluable insights into the development of musical expertise. Through the art of improvisation, he shares how his intellectual pursuits have enriched his musicianship, and he unveils his secrets to maintaining and nurturing the quality of mind required to excel in the world of music, and the responsibility that musicians hold to both themselves and their audience. Join us as we delve into the fascinating world of Dr. Gautam Suresh Vijayan, often a musician, scholar, and delightful human being. It’s just absolutely amazing to have you here to talk with you and learn from you about your experience and also your background in Carnatic music, can you just say a little bit about your background and just who you are and how you describe yourself these days,
Dr. Suresh Vaidyanathan 3:11
I come from a music loving family background, my maternal grandparents were you know, good musicians, but non performing in public. So, they initiated every child that is born in the family into music, this is when they wanted them to be singing. You know, there are many occasions in the family, where the children as they grow, they are being put into demonstate demonstrating their musical skills. So, also it is being considered as custom and ritual to have the children be taught some music. Because in future, they might, you know, find relaxation, or distressing thing with music. So music was not intended to be a professional families like ours, but it happened. So me and my elder brother, were put into learning percussion instrument from a teacher who was a friend of my grandfather, because my grandfather realized that we show more interest in percussion, or mean kind of beating on whatever utensil or a table or a chair that comes by, you know, so as far as that is handy, we were trying to express our skills. So we were put into this teacher and as we were learning, we started showing more interest in perfecting the art or probably to outdo the equals students that was that is how the entire starts. In fact, the topic is improvisation. So on improvisation is also a way of expressing your one openness, in comparison with your co students made basically, you don’t even study the rules properly, but still, even ahead of that, even before that, you’re into comparing and competing. So, that level, you know, establishes or assures that you are going to go further exploring music, then there was we could win Icron, who was the son of my first teacher, Haryana Sharma, who was busy with Shakti bye band and in every break of the tour, you would come back and you know, supervise the students. On one such occasion he found me to be worthy enough to be taught get him tactic, because I was trying to answer the question as well, then he asked me to attend specialty classes early in the mornings, then will teach me the proper fingering technique of cutter. Again, that is a stage where he would properly guide me into stage by stage, you know, exploration and improvisations, it’s this he first introduced the world to me, you cannot be static, you need to be dynamic. So, to show dynamism, you should do always make a statement and improve on it, improve on it go on improving on it and then so, that was a discipline taught basically, you need to do this. And since the teacher tells you whether it is natural or a trust of one idea, you work on it more and more. So that is how we the next stage comes, then we could become more busy. And then I had to be sent to another teacher, my father to be to the living legend Dr. Devi Gopalakrishnan, who is an expert in Madang. Suddenly, percussion and many music instruments vocal Hindustani and kinetic multifaceted genius. So this man found me worthy enough to be taught, or be put into another galaxy of music where you become a creative musician, you are able to compose you’re able to arrange and organize and lead an ensemble. And also do is particularly appreciate the lyrical part of the music or the melodic part of music because as percussion students, you know, you’re not into learning more of the melodic side of music. Say for example, the raga Audra the progress canes are how they get improved out, they get developed, how you present them the most, you will probably get to learn how to accompany songs, songs are in a restricted lyrical words based on a particular raga. But you need to learn that you need to go with a song you cannot do as a parallel track. You have to embellish any for that reason. You need to learn the song kind of you know, by by experience by it’s not being it’s not taught on a systematic manner. But the teacher always refers to the song you have to do this at this point. And don’t do this in the other song kind of cadence. So that was the next stage then for a long period I was with chemical biology. So learning the process of composing and creating opera kind of music, allotting sections to many other co artists. So this is the next level of learning. So as I was growing up, I was also being put into a company. Some of the greatest percussion players in all colors, and instrumental players. Some of the names I had played with or press Balaton those winner which was Lalgudi, Gera, Emma’s Gopalakrishnan, color, internationally acclaimed kinetic musicians. And on the vocal also, I had been playing right from the doyen of kinetic music, some of what he seen was a Yeah. Who would have been Harlan, particularly years now. If he’s alive, so that is that kind of age difference was there but still, as a young boy was put into a company, most of the musicians so it’s like every concert is an experience. And you play with a big local musician, or an instrumentalist. Both are entirely different in approach in a way in, though both of them present a lot of lyrical compositions because kradic music is based upon lyrical compositions and a large number. But approaching an accompanying vocal music is different from each Music are the skills you know, you get to learn as you grow as you perform a concert. And every concert is a teaching platform learning platform for you. So this is how I started, and almost about four decades have gone by, since I started performing onstage. And I was also good in academics, I was at a schooling, I went to college, in my bachelor’s degree in commerce and masters. And then about 1015 years back, someone suggested this homology courses are introduced in University of Madras, where you can do a mock, get a master’s degree on that. So I joined that course, well, after establishing as a professional musician, but still I treated myself as a students and attended the classes in winter to the library, exploring books, things like that, doing projects, and that is when probably the, you know, the, it dawned on my mind that I should go further deep into doing some research, because I’m being hailed as a very complete percussionist, and someone who has gone deep into the style playing techniques, and the history of meeting some kind of convention and respectability, among carrying some prospectivity on the instrument. This is, I mean, this is another part of analyzing my music, let me first complete this part. So the way the society is looking at me, as a responsible percussionist someone who can give a dignified presentation, I mean, these are all jargons, I would say, but still, they always attach this objectives to someone who’s really you know, acceptable in the field. So, at that point, I thought that let me put my mind into, you know, to go further into research, and interestingly, I found that nobody has done it earlier. One reason is that, there are a lot of, you know, academic requirements, basic conditions, like you should be a master, you should have a master’s degree you should be in a musically connected, and there is a lot of return work that is needed to be done. And when you are expected to do some real research, that is the basic requirement, though some people skip it, and they took, they take other routes, but basically, I’m someone who’s, who was crucial, a lot of interest in reading, and trying to learn, wherever there is a source and retain it and use it, it’s not just music, anything connected with music and information, I normally collect and retain it or you know, try to
put it together to use in my works. So, from there, the journey further went into, you know, referring a lot of books and collecting information about musicians of the past, especially those who played about three centuries back. And then how I mean, what, what I mean the styles of performance and various approaches to music, how they procure, determine how their instruments were made. And then interestingly, when you check the, the Scriptures, the old poem live, works, and whatever works, little literary works that are, that have a connection with music. Interestingly, there’s loads of information about general music musicians, and very less about guitar players. But, when I explored further, not not confining myself to kratom, I mean for to to Carnatic music or music, get up as a pot, you know, it has a lot of other connections, it is a household instrument, it is used in all the rituals not just by the Indian community, but by the entire world. A clay board has been a part and parcel of everybody’s life system. And then, there have been philosophers in all beliefs, who have you know, taken DisplayPort for referring, I mean for describing philosophical thoughts. So, the, the mortality of men, man or remote and the market, maturity of the soul, all these things you know, like this, for every description or explanation they have always taken the clipboard as to to show as an instant instance, or, or an example. So, I found that there’s a lot of material in that approach as well, and started collecting information on that, and made it a part of my research, though it doesn’t speak much about music. But a clay pot also has a different phase, unlike the other music instruments. So the all these things put together, I did my research, I started doing it in 2016. And it took about six years, maybe I should I should not have completed, I wanted to do a little more about time constraints where they’re imposed by the education system. So I had to stop at a particular point, and then put them together, do my dissertation and then successfully have completed my doctorate. But the day I said I should stop, I realized that that was the beginning, actually, honestly, there is so much more to learn about the clipboard and how the clipboard has been mainly to different kinds of instruments. And now there are musicians as well, I mean, living around me who do not play the guitar bass have gotten but as another instrument, the amount of animals high on top, and then convert it into a different instrument, but still it is a clay pot base like this, there are a number of instruments available all over the all over India. And there are of course, instruments like guru or other clay based instruments around the world. So the exploration cannot stop. And I just gave it a temporary break only. So I would like to explore more, if God gives me the stent, you know, life and then the opportunity to do it. But in performance, to put everything in a nutshell, all these 40 years of my journey in music, what I have realized is that I’m not here just to be another compliment in a concept as a fourth or fifth percussion player and go along with the music just moving. And then, you know, having fun with compositions, get paid, go home, have a very happy life. And then that’s it, I mean, put a full stop somewhere, during my journey, maybe three tickets back, I would have I have realized that I am a little different in my performance, I do not know how that realization came. But I have been performing but incumbent more Easter declare a call. But I cannot make that statement because it’s someone else who has to say that, but I’m trying to restrict myself not to, you know, bring in mediocrity and not to bring in an at least spoil being a spoilsport in a in a, in a very smooth, aesthetically developed performance. So my role I started redefining as a better compliment, I compared myself with somebody else who is intruding too much or who’s playing all the time, not to bother about squeezes not giving time to take in the song or allow the other performer to come out with his ideas. These are all I have always been thinking that they you know, they are actually they do not allow an artist to grow further. The the attitude, the sex in an artist’s mind, either it is indifference, or it is you know, high headedness, too much of pride or kind of all the time needing to have public attention, attention seeking attitude, all these you know, restrict a musician to open up or explore further internally. So it’s internalizing, that is what was you know, I was feeling that need to be explored more, which I have started doing and my performance improved differently, because I can see some phenomenal musicians you know, start respecting me start may not be giving me more opportunities, but they always looked upon me my statements my performance, and they underline that this is a class apart. This has happened, you know, all these all these years. I thought that well if someone pays me to be a different a concept or an offer had been standing in either place, I would like to read in that place first. And then if possible to go further up in their expectation, or in public opinion, that is probably the right recognition, you know, someone’s giving you an award or giving you more opportunities, you know, that can come or not, may not be even, you know, striking at the right time, the right proportion. But you are still, you know, given this, this platform or an innovation, that, that gives you a lot of self esteem. So, all these years, I’ve been doing that, getting a lot of students who realize my value, and be disciplined to learn from me, that is one of the point and my performances, I make sure that they have a mark of the most, I would not say sophisticated, but it has a class, it has an authority, a dignity, and aesthetic sense, and realizing the value of an audience.
Bradley Vines 21:17
Amazing. That’s fantastic background and so wonderful to hear how you are approaching development, even when you are so accomplished. And that really is the mark of the the ultimate potential of a musician or someone in any walk of life or endeavor, always striving further and finding those next steps. Even when you play in such a complete way, a way that is so on spiring already so hard. So I’d be really curious to hear a little bit more about how you found that next gear that next level for yourself. Because it would be very easy just to say like you said, you know, I’m doing very well. Look, lots of people love my playing. I don’t know, my calendar is filled with opportunities to play, how did you find that focus? And then what can you talk a little bit more about? How you you found a way to work on getting even better and and kind of what that that next approach was for you that which is a creative leap forward?
Dr. Suresh Vaidyanathan 22:45
Yes, fortunately, I was asked when I reached when I started learning from my third guru, Octavia Gopalakrishnan, he has been performing vocal music a lot. So whenever he had a performs, he wanted me to accompany him and cut him a small boy of like 1314 years old, but the other compliments would be someone who is in his 50s or, you know, a little more very established, celebrated Madonna player or a violinist. So every concert I’m here the smallest and the most inexperienced guy sitting and just for the sake of being TV stars, students, and but the rest of them are all great musicians. But that was the biggest opportunity I got because every concert I was sitting next to these giants you know, listening to them listening to their live music. And it they were literally teaching me how to earn what is the best way of performing they were giving me lessons indirectly by accompanying to accompany my teachers music and performing a very grand solo things like so, initially, they will not even turn towards my side and you know, do a nod or a smile, they will not care even to talk to my side. But I thought that maybe I should recuse myself more to turn their attention, I did not feel insulted. So then on, I mean, simultaneous I was also attracted to the way they you know, present their compositions, their own creative ideas, the groovy, the poetic ideas, and the way they give punches to the accent to their music and they connect with the audience and the sustain that energy and you know, suddenly grow up like, no big gene. So these are all, you know, a big level Seems to me so I thought maybe I should work on this. By start those days, there was no, you know, you cannot record or you don’t have a reference of what’s happened, what has happened earlier. So suddenly, you have to put all your focus on these machines performance. And I thought maybe something similar to what they do, or at least try to learn and repeat. next concert, if he plays the same thing, I will be back by playing the same stuff immediately, so that he’s surprised. So the initial idea was to surprise them. And then I started playing exactly what they were doing. And for more information, the workplane on the MME cannot be exactly played on the bottom, you won’t be able to produce same effect. So I need to alter the fingering techniques, and the concept, and then try to add a little more of my facility on the instrument and show it. So first, this, they were surprised, oh, my God, this guy, this boy is able to grasp and playback, but it was not instant it I had already been working on it from because not every other day, you play with the same great percussion player. So what I do was, what I’ve been doing was to learn this myself or I had a couple of, you know, senior students of these machines, I would consult them very, I mean, genuinely, with all respect, have learned this from them, and then be ready for the next opportunity. So it was a slow process, but I could, at some point of time, I was able to impress upon them, that I’m here, who can, you know, reply to you in the, in the level you expect someone. So this was happening right after one percussionist after another. And at one point, they started that they want to challenge me. So that is my success, when they thought from from a total ignorance or ignoring stature State, I was now being recognized, now I’m being challenged. So then the I started working on that as well again. So if they say three plus four is seven, I would say focus to the side, or at least one plus three plus four is seven, plus two plus four is seven. So it’s one double of one, and then develop to so kind of this kind of concepts. When you reply in there, you know, again, you challenge the back, kind of, not really. But I try to do that, then they come up with some more ideas. And then the best thing is that they start recommending you for more concerts. Till then it was not if you’re there, okay, fine. And then they start recommending your name. So that’s the next level of your acceptance. And once the acceptance starts more responsibility sensitive. So from then on, I thought that, well, if I have to be accepted by these people, I have to stay they’re still there in my thought process, in my work in my compositions, in my rendering, in my brevity, in my accepting and going in the same lights, there are a lot of things that make them happy. And there are a lot of things that make them unhappy as well. So I should avoid those unhappy moments. Definitely. If you’re too long, they don’t like if you play too, I mean, for I mean, the same proportion of their time, they don’t. There’s too much of pride or selfishness that sets in the musician’s mind once he is getting recognized. So he thinks that he should command the next person. I mean, incidentally, the khatam is not the main percussion necrotic music concert. So you have to be submissive, not really submissive, but you know, rested to in your playing, and you know, wait for, especially when the blade is a senior, but that rule has compensating so awkwardly, that even a junior Brazilian player would look upon someone like me? Well, I’m today I do not want to share with you what I play. I will challenge you with the some complex and delicacy. With all your experience, you’re able to respond to be all you fumble, kind of just attitude is there. But I should be prepared for anything if I’m really a professional one. I will charge whatever fees I want but I should be in a performing 100% to my ability and my experience. So you constantly I would have been put into tests. I haven’t put into no challenges that were feeding into my mind reading my brain a lot more work. They were extracting from me a lot of work. I was he even today I keep enjoying them the moment some buddy says that I have composed a new and also copyrighted music. Would you like to I mean, I would like to perform this, I don’t have to share with you, when you have it your experience at all. You can directly I mean, you, it’s all cakewalk for you, as I immediately will say no, it’s not like that, please send me the music, I’ll learn, I’ll be prepared. It’s not just learning I would do I would be prepared with the more of challenging back ideas, concepts to surprise him, not to bother him, but to you know, add my elements wherever that is possible. And tell him that, well, I am a little bit, you know, experienced and creative too. I appreciate your music at the same time, I do have some something to add up or add to it. So this is maybe I mean, I’m not sure if this is the only way a musician should grow. But to me, I find that this is the right way more than, you know, doing a PR and trying to sell my music. I mean, spend more time in communicating, marketing my music, I have always been feeling that, well, I should keep the stock ready. Once I mean there is a particular circle where they know that there’s some quality material that is available. This musician this man can deliver some of the brilliant performance or ideas or the most, you know, I mean, how do you describe satisfaction in music, and you go and enjoy music, okay, if you see enjoyment in music, that’s not the right term, but I still call it so someone comes to your concert and you make him feel very happy, elated or you know he feels satisfied, no some some way you touch is soul on his mind with your superlative performance. So, once you get into that level, you want to I feel that I should remain that once that is not possible. One one when I realized that that is not physically possible, or my mind is not going into it. Or I become more and more due to some reason and maybe contentedness or frustration, whatever it is, if I’m going to be pushed away from this state, I should stop the
Bradley Vines 32:45
keeping the purity. Keeping out mediocrity as you put it is so core to your approach and so important. And the thing about that is to stay fresh, it’s the constant movement. And you do that by constantly challenging yourself and the people you’re with which is very inspiring. So thank you for sharing that. I think that’s so eye opening, to hear that from the perspective of someone like yourself, how you approach each and every concert each and every opportunity as a growth opportunity
Dr. Suresh Vaidyanathan 33:25
as a single seven simple statement. I would say it’s the people around me who you know, made sure that I grew up. It’s not their intention, but indirectly they might be you know, grow into a better musician. By setting standards
Bradley Vines 33:42
now you are playing that role in so many young musician well musicians of all ages that come to you to learn and we’re helping them to raise their level and find the path to the next step in their progression. The legacy continues of your teachers through your teaching of your pupils.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
THE NEUROSCIENCE OF IMPROVISATION 